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You Are Still Crying Wolf

(slatestarcodex.com)
104 points primodemus | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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SamBam ◴[] No.12978054[source]
1. Kudos to him for putting in the "Edit" about the inaccuracies in exit-poll data, but it's a really big "Edit" and casts doubt on most of his initial premise.

2. No mention of Bannon? This article was written yesterday, and we knew Trump had chosen Bannon to be his right-hand man long before then.

3. No mention that Trump believes that an American judge of Mexican heritage can't judge him? Of the birther claims? Or of playing to white fears with completely make-believe images of "inner cities" being war zones?

4. The jiu jitsu over saying that banning "All Muslims" from entering the country isn't really racism because "most Muslims are white(ish)" is nonsense.

5. And yes, it is special pleading. The author goes out of his way to explain things in a way that is unique to Trump:

> 15. Don’t we know that Trump supports racist violence because, when some of his supporters beat up a Latino man, he just said they were “passionate”?

> When Trump was asked for comment, he tweeted “Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country”.

> I have no idea how his mind works and am frankly boggled by all of this, but calling violent protesters “passionate” just seems to be a thing of his. I think this is actually a pretty important point. Trump is a weird person.

Oh. Ok. He doesn't support beating up people. He's just "weird."

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Edit: Also the author seems to have confused two statements of "passion." Trump's tweet about "small groups of protesters" was made just the other day. Instead, after the beating up of the Latino man, he said

"I will say, the people that are following me are very passionate, they love this country, they want this country to be great again."

Note that not only is he calling those men "passionate," he is essentially justifying their actions by bringing up their "love of country," which is particularly telling in the case of men beating up an immigrant.

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maxerickson ◴[] No.12978127[source]
At least a couple of the other arguments also have problems. He tweeted twice about the protests:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/11/do...

The first one was dismissive, the second one was supportive. Why not discuss them both?

The other one that jumped out at me was the taco bowl. I'm pretty sure lots of racists like tacos, tacos are delicious. So liking tacos doesn't say a whole lot. I'd go so far as to say that ham-fisted pandering using a taco bowl says more than liking tacos.

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SamBam ◴[] No.12978208[source]
And the taco-bowl picture is captioned with "I love Hispanics!"

Most people don't talk this way, but everything he says about minorities lumps them together: "The Hispanics." "The Blacks." "The Muslims."

> “I have a great relationship with the blacks, I’ve always had a great relationship with the blacks.” [1]

> “The Hispanics are going to get those jobs, and they’re going to love Trump.” [2]

> “I’m doing good for the Muslims,” [3]

[1] http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/04/14/6471219-trump-... [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-border_us_5... [3] http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/09/politics/donald-trump-don-lemo...

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jerf ◴[] No.12978269[source]
"If you classify people into ethnic groups, you're a racist" is waaaay too powerful to use to prove "Trump is a racist". Unless you're willing to accept that pretty much everyone is a racist. Which perhaps some people are ready to accept, but it's not a very useful classification at that point.
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carapace ◴[] No.12978567[source]
I'll speak to this point, because it's subtle but important.

The essence of racism is the refusal or inability to understand others as fully human. It's possible to be racist without hate.

My father didn't hate Chinese people, he liked them and respected them, but he couldn't quite see them as the same as him in the fundamental way. He said once, "Chinamen make good citizens."

When I visited New York City, I noticed that the races got along but self-segregated. I went to a large business cafe and all the tables were each one "race": Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics.

Growing up in San Francisco my friends and all the people I knew were pretty eclectic: Hawaiian-born Chinese, Mexican-American Mormon, Japanese/White (his mom called herself a "rice-clackah" ("cracker" is a racial pejorative for White, and Japanese people stereotypically have trouble pronouncing the 'r' sound) she loved scandalizing people with that...), Black bi-sexual, etc..., and none of us every really "tripped" on it. We were all just people hanging out together.

Like Sesame Street, we were the real thing of what you see on Sesame Street.

I don't want to be all East Coast v. West Coast, but I definitely feel weird when I hear people talk about "I love the Blacks."

"BLACK people" vs. "black PEOPLE"

To quote Bob Marley (quoting Haile Selassie): "Until the colour of a man's skin / Is of no more significance / than the colour of his eyes"

And here's Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

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jerf ◴[] No.12979081[source]
That's true and all, but classifying people into ethnic groups is not evidence that any of what you said is true about a specific person. I don't think it disproves anything about what I said... if you're going to say that classifying people into ethnic groups is sufficient to call someone racist, you've made everyone racist. Which may be true for that definition of racism, but it's then not useful to say that Trump is racist in that sense. I don't think most people are looking to use definitions of racism that classify Hillary and the entire Democratic political strategy as "racist". Applying that definition selectively is just more wolf-crying.
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carapace ◴[] No.12979701[source]
First, let me say that reading the OP has eased my worry that the President-Elect "is racist" (at least no more than typical, which unfortunately is still pretty racist, but let that pass for the sake of discussion.) I no longer think that Trump is racist in the sense that he hates non-whites. (I'm also really annoyed that the media I frequent did such a poor job portraying the guy in this regard, but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

I do still believe that he, and most people, are racist in the sense of having a hard time relating to "The Other" as another aspect or manifestation of "Self". But here we are getting far from the political and into deeper interpersonal relations. In other words, this is something that can't really be addressed by laws, so it is formally outside the bailiwick of the POTUS. However, I would still rather the POTUS be someone conducive to the greater good. Trump seems out of his depth here, as in so many other areas.

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JamesBarney ◴[] No.12981285[source]
Having trouble relating to "The Other" is pretty universal this election cycle. Like the multitudes who believe that everyone who supports Trump is a Racist.

The standard, and in my opinion most useful, definition of a racist is "a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another" not "having having trouble relating to people of different backgrounds". That's not racist, its just human.

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carapace ◴[] No.12982549[source]
Well, my problems with Trump voters (or as I think of them, "the Idiocracy") start waaaay back in the sticks.

You see, I've seen "Gremlins II".

To me, voting for Donald Trump is like voting for Yosemite Sam. This is so much worse than Governor Schwarzenegger. I wake up in the middle of the night and experience a shock when my mind presents the thought, "President Trump". It's like Arthur Dent's early morning scream of horror as he recalls that he's stuck on prehistoric Earth. And this is all before we get to the racism, climate-denial, and so on.

Tuesday night he sent his spokeswoman Hope Hicks to tell the press pool that he's in for the night. Then he bails and goes to dinner without telling the press, leaving Hicks to pick up after him. So either Hicks lied to the press or her boss burned her. The whole thing is unpresidential in my opinion, and no racism in sight.

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grzm ◴[] No.12982584[source]
How will your opinions shape what you do for the next few years or so?
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carapace ◴[] No.12983004{3}[source]
Why do you ask?

-----

Quite frankly, I am in an existential crisis. The world no longer makes sense to me. The world that contains "President Trump" as a real thing is like... unreal. It's like I've woken up in some alternate reality, except it's not.

This is real.

Millions of people voted for Donald Trump for POTUS and to me that makes no sense.

I don't think I'll do anything. What is there to do? Why bother?

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grzm ◴[] No.12983103{4}[source]
Well, with strong opinions, I have hope that they'd motivate you to do something. I'm trying to figure out what I can do that's both constructive and effective. One of the things specifically I want to do is make sure I'm listening to people who I don't necessarily agree with and understand where they're coming from. With your tone and phrasing, particularly in your descriptions of Trump voters, and seeing a lot of similar language on both sides of the voting divide, I'm genuinely interested in how that's going to affect what you do.

That was all thought of before I saw your comment updates. I hope you can figure out something that you feel is constructive. Feeling hopeless is terrible.

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1. carapace ◴[] No.12983310{5}[source]
The thing is, my strong opinion is that Trump is basically a human cartoon character, so that leaves me just blown out of the water that so many people take him seriously. That's where I'm at right now, and where I've been this whole time he's been campaigning, like, "C'mon y'all, you're not serious. Where's Ashton Kusher, 'cause I'm being punk'd."

And yet, here we are.

So I don't want to participate. It's all fun and games until somebody elects Donald Trump president. Now I want off the planet, or back through the looking-glass, or whatever. I said, half-jokingly, that if Trump got elected I was going to sit in the middle of the largest nearby intersection with a sign around my neck saying "Give me food or kill me" and wait for death. I can't actually do that because I'm the breadwinner in my family, but yeah. Take my BS with a grain of salt: I'm a lonely curmudgeon with no friends who rarely leaves the house. ;-)

As for constructive and effective things to do, call your reps, participate in government, keep communicating your values in word and deed.

I really don't think this geriatric clowntroll will last four years. He has no idea of the demands that are going to be placed on him, and I think it will wipe him out in short order.