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212 points DamienSF | 2 comments | | HN request time: 2.877s | source
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wjnc ◴[] No.12171047[source]
I think this story does not need to be flagged, but could benefit from a very constrained discussion ('self-censoring') to not let personal political opinions take over the discussion. I'll try.

Is this a direction more modern, western democracies seem to be heading? I feel a loss of democratic appeal and subsequent machinations of all kinds by apparatuses of state to keep in power. Democratic in name, but the number of options available to the public limited to what is in line with what public officials think of as good sense.

Examples:

-DNC machinating to get Clinton elected as candidate. The public needed Russia (!) for a fresh dosis of unpopular truths about those machinations. This documents more evidence on machinations.

-The unpopular and undemocratic European Union. Examples abound. The best being the EU-constitution: struck down in popular referendums, flown in as a treaty.

-In my country, the Netherlands, a referendum in which the public voted against an EU-agreement with Ukraine (wholy within law, with very obvious machinations by state and political parties), on which both the government and EU reneged

Counter example:

-Brexit

Disclaimers

-Please, don't hit on the 'red herrings' (if any), like 'undemocratic EU'. I see it as both a fact (imho, populus does not recognize European parliament) and an opinion (mostly in the more populist parties over Europe). Not center to my view of democracies limiting decision power of the populus. -The 'public officials' need not be those paid by the state. But more broadly: those aspiring to have their organisations have a say over public policy.

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1. bbctol ◴[] No.12174280[source]
I'm unconvinced that a "loss" of democracy is a direction we're headed in. While I agree the points you raise are troubling, I can't find the trend line:

-Convention machinations to get someone elected are certainly nothing new. And a statement like "The public needed Russia" to shine a light on these machinations, in the context of this being an example of a bad direction, implies... that previously, these machinations came to light on their own?

-Similarly, with respect to the unpopularity of the EU, it's the unpopularity that's new, not the EU. And I think it's hard to say if Euroskepticism over the past 5-6 years is due to the Treaty of Lisbon more than broader economic uncertainty. Is the EU gaining power, or do people just like it less?

I don't want to have too Whiggish a conception of history, but I think there's a big difference between "The world isn't as democratic as it should be" and "The world is getting less democratic," and I keep finding it hard to find evidence for the latter.

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2. wjnc ◴[] No.12185899[source]
Good points re economic instability as a driver for a -feeling- of less democracy and the distinction between wish and situation. Thank you.