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212 points DamienSF | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.726s | source
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wjnc ◴[] No.12171047[source]
I think this story does not need to be flagged, but could benefit from a very constrained discussion ('self-censoring') to not let personal political opinions take over the discussion. I'll try.

Is this a direction more modern, western democracies seem to be heading? I feel a loss of democratic appeal and subsequent machinations of all kinds by apparatuses of state to keep in power. Democratic in name, but the number of options available to the public limited to what is in line with what public officials think of as good sense.

Examples:

-DNC machinating to get Clinton elected as candidate. The public needed Russia (!) for a fresh dosis of unpopular truths about those machinations. This documents more evidence on machinations.

-The unpopular and undemocratic European Union. Examples abound. The best being the EU-constitution: struck down in popular referendums, flown in as a treaty.

-In my country, the Netherlands, a referendum in which the public voted against an EU-agreement with Ukraine (wholy within law, with very obvious machinations by state and political parties), on which both the government and EU reneged

Counter example:

-Brexit

Disclaimers

-Please, don't hit on the 'red herrings' (if any), like 'undemocratic EU'. I see it as both a fact (imho, populus does not recognize European parliament) and an opinion (mostly in the more populist parties over Europe). Not center to my view of democracies limiting decision power of the populus. -The 'public officials' need not be those paid by the state. But more broadly: those aspiring to have their organisations have a say over public policy.

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1. PopsiclePete ◴[] No.12174136[source]
The Elites have decided that the "commoners" are too stupid to be trusted with actual decision making. They let us play at democracy, the way you might let a child play with Legos, but the real power and decision-making has always been behind closed doors. It's not new, it's just that we are more aware of it now. The Internet and fast flow of information changed the game and the political systems are slow to adapt.

I only see real Democracy working in small, relatively wealthy and homogeneous countries. As soon as you go >X for some value of X where X is the population size, it starts to rapidly fall apart.

Maybe too many people introduce too much chaos and political structures hate chaos. More than that, the markets hate chaos. If you let the people actually control things, you introduce the potential for rapid change, instability, etc, all things that Big Money hates.

This is why they want larger governments, single currencies, centralization of power, trans-pacific and trans-atlantic trade treaties - it brings economic and market stability. At the expense of your personal freedoms and often, your economic well-being. A lot of money will be made, yes, too bad most of it will go to the top 1%.

The US political farce this year is a prime example of that - the Republican base finally got fed up, the Democratic base finally got fed up. The UK also finally got fed up.

The Elites and Globalists ultimately have a single message that they keep repeating - Globalization is good, immigration is good, if you disagree - you're a xenophobic racist. Oh, you're a blue-collar worker and globalization and immigration actually end up destroying your town's economy - too bad, maybe you should have been a banker or software engineer or bio-med researcher! How silly of you to not be one of those three things!

So yes, the GDP keeps growing, economists are happy, but you're not seeing any of the benefits. Housing is getting more and more expensive and your salary is stagnating and all the Elites keep telling you is that this in your best interest, and is, in fact, the only way to move forward. And if you disagree - well, aren't you a silly little backwards out-of-touch country bumpkin?

We haven't even seen the worst of it yet. Automation and smarter AI will keep removing jobs at a break-neck pace, population migration will keep destabilizing countries and what is the end-game to fewer and fewer good jobs and more and more people? Well, we're looking at the results already. Nobody has a back-up plan either.

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2. Decade ◴[] No.12174607[source]
> The Elites have decided that the "commoners" are too stupid to be trusted with actual decision making… I only see real Democracy working in small, relatively wealthy and homogeneous countries.

It is a scientifically verified truth that we are puny monkeys playing at God. The problem with leaving democracy to small groups is when the small group’s decisions affect the entire world. For example: San Francisco neighborhood associations’ affect on the housing market and technological development.

Another example: The “commoner” reaction to oil prices going back down, first after the OPEC embargo, and now during this weird fracking + Saudi thing. The “elite” Elon Musk is still going ahead with trying to get us off fossil fuels, but the commoner keeps trying to use more.

Learning enough to have an informed position makes you an elite. One problem is there is so little connection between being a political elite and being a smart, benevolent elite. There’s a reason why Obama is seen by Republicans as condescending and dictatorial.

> Oh, you're a blue-collar worker and globalization and immigration actually end up destroying your town's economy - too bad, maybe you should have been a banker or software engineer or bio-med researcher!

Why should you “be” a blue-collar worker, banker, software engineer, or any other job description? You are a human, and you can learn and do anything (modulo actual physical limitations). Lifelong learning is the goal, and research and personal experience suggest that lifelong learning actually gives you better quality of life than the alternatives.

But the US education system is horrible at that. It is shaping and limiting people’s options from the time that they enter elementary school, and are immediately sorted into, oh, you’re bad at math and good at reading, or you’re bad at reading and good at sports.

By and large, globalization has been good. We have more access to stuff and communications than any society in the history of the world. Past performance does not guarantee future results; we are still monkeys playing at God, so globalization can cause problems. When the US is exporting our restrictions on freedoms, for example.

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3. dvk ◴[] No.12176028[source]
a) Is everyone a monkey playing at God, or are some monkeys more godly than others?

b) What if some monkeys just want to play with bananas? Why should some monkey decide that "lifelong learning" is better for them?