←back to thread

212 points DamienSF | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.799s | source
Show context
wjnc ◴[] No.12171047[source]
I think this story does not need to be flagged, but could benefit from a very constrained discussion ('self-censoring') to not let personal political opinions take over the discussion. I'll try.

Is this a direction more modern, western democracies seem to be heading? I feel a loss of democratic appeal and subsequent machinations of all kinds by apparatuses of state to keep in power. Democratic in name, but the number of options available to the public limited to what is in line with what public officials think of as good sense.

Examples:

-DNC machinating to get Clinton elected as candidate. The public needed Russia (!) for a fresh dosis of unpopular truths about those machinations. This documents more evidence on machinations.

-The unpopular and undemocratic European Union. Examples abound. The best being the EU-constitution: struck down in popular referendums, flown in as a treaty.

-In my country, the Netherlands, a referendum in which the public voted against an EU-agreement with Ukraine (wholy within law, with very obvious machinations by state and political parties), on which both the government and EU reneged

Counter example:

-Brexit

Disclaimers

-Please, don't hit on the 'red herrings' (if any), like 'undemocratic EU'. I see it as both a fact (imho, populus does not recognize European parliament) and an opinion (mostly in the more populist parties over Europe). Not center to my view of democracies limiting decision power of the populus. -The 'public officials' need not be those paid by the state. But more broadly: those aspiring to have their organisations have a say over public policy.

replies(9): >>12171063 #>>12171089 #>>12171090 #>>12171096 #>>12171174 #>>12173782 #>>12173921 #>>12174136 #>>12174280 #
1. ZoF ◴[] No.12171174[source]
The Russian hacker meme hasn't been proven in any way.

Until substantiated it's just a way for the DNC to deflect from the corruption, 'Russia wants you to vote Republican, don't fall for it'.

replies(1): >>12174442 #
2. thesimpsons1022 ◴[] No.12174442[source]
Not proven in any way? I guess if you want to completely disregard US intelligence agencies. Are you asking to see their proof? This would imply the agencies are part of some conspiracy.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/spy-agency-...?

replies(2): >>12174616 #>>12224573 #
3. wavefunction ◴[] No.12174616[source]
US intelligence agencies are definitely part of multiple conspiracies.

I don't find them particularly reliable. Their heads perjured themselves in front of Congress not long ago, let's not forget.

4. ZoF ◴[] No.12224573[source]
I guess you blindly follow them.