Most active commenters
  • kbenson(8)
  • grovulent(4)
  • qb45(3)

←back to thread

Ubuntu on Windows

(blog.dustinkirkland.com)
2049 points bpierre | 61 comments | 30 Mar 16 16:35 UTC | HN request time: 0.005s | source | bottom
Show context
bcantrill ◴[30 Mar 16 19:35 UTC] No.11392265[source]▶
This is great to see, as it's very similar to the approach that we took with LX-branded zones on SmartOS[1][2]. I commented at some length on the other thread on this on HN[3], but I have a bunch of questions about apps that we know to be thorny: Go, strace, tcpdump, systemd, etc. As we learned, this approach is entirely possible -- but there are many, many details to be nailed before you get to the point that you can run production applications on it. So while the journey across the uncanny valley of Linux is long and arduous, we know from our experience that it can be done. Very much hoping that Microsoft gets to the other side -- and that they open source it all so we can all learn from one another!

[1] http://www.slideshare.net/bcantrill/illumos-lx

[2] http://us-east.manta.joyent.com/patrick.mooney/public/talks/...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11392119

replies(5): >>11392299 #>>11392418 #>>11393777 #>>11395242 #>>11395345 #
crudbug ◴[30 Mar 16 19:39 UTC] No.11392299[source]▶
I think M$ is targeting more developers with *NIX background on the desktop side rather than Linux apps on server. So a bash support with uniform CLI is the end-game.
replies(2): >>11392350 #>>11393097 #
talawahdotnet ◴[30 Mar 16 19:45 UTC] No.11392350[source]▶
Yea, I think they are going after developers who use OS X because it is UNIXy. Smart move given how en vogue Apple laptops have become for developers these days.
replies(9): >>11392457 #>>11392525 #>>11392717 #>>11392840 #>>11392967 #>>11393415 #>>11394345 #>>11394921 #>>11395006 #
1. riotdash ◴[30 Mar 16 20:43 UTC] No.11392840[source]▶
Let's be honest here. Does this change make some developers actually even consider to change their OS X/Linux Desktops to Windows? Yeah it is really cool thing that we can finally use windows cmd like the terminal on unix systems however:

- What about lack of all the Linux/OS X GUI software?

- What about lack of all the UNIX OS features?

- What about all those billions and billions of Windows malware, viruses, adware etc.

- What about all the spying and restrictions that Microsoft has integrated into the Windows? (e.g. cannot block Microsoft spy server in the hosts-file, forced updates etc.)

- What about the fact that OS X and Linux have always been at least decent from developers point of view but Windows has always had problems and then things like Vista and Win8 happen.

- What about the advertisements served to you in the login screen?

- What about all the future shit MS will throw at you?

- Other stuff can't remember now

If and IF this will actually work out well, I would say this finally makes Windows usable for software development however I don't see any reason why anyone would change from UNIX based system to Windows unless they plan to make even bigger changes in the future...( like rewriting whole Windows to be UNIX based for example. :) )

replies(14): >>11392937 #>>11392946 #>>11392993 #>>11392999 #>>11393035 #>>11393151 #>>11393163 #>>11393299 #>>11393392 #>>11393419 #>>11394460 #>>11394665 #>>11394800 #>>11395209 #
2. rahoulb ◴[30 Mar 16 20:56 UTC] No.11392937[source]▶
For a second machine (maybe a cheap laptop) then yes, I would consider it.

As a side note, Windows NT had a POSIX layer as one of its three main APIs (Along with Win32 and OS/2), so in theory, at least, it should have been easy to port true UNIX apps to it. I have no idea what state the POSIX layer is in now; probably in a similar state to the OS/2 layer.

replies(1): >>11393018 #
3. spicyj ◴[30 Mar 16 20:58 UTC] No.11392946[source]▶
For me, surprisingly yes. I had no interest in having Windows as my primary machine yesterday but now I would seriously consider it.
4. EastSmith ◴[30 Mar 16 21:04 UTC] No.11392993[source]▶
Data point: On Windows when you run 'npm install' on a react boilerplate/starter project chances are 50/50 that it will work out of the box. A year ago it was way worse. I thought heavily on switching to Mac for no other reason but 'npm install' success rate on Windows.
replies(2): >>11395145 #>>11395458 #
5. pookeh ◴[30 Mar 16 21:05 UTC] No.11392999[source]▶
While I prefer to develop today on OS X...your post is nothing but FUD.

> What about lack of all the Linux/OS X GUI software?

Windows prolly has more GUI applications than both those OSes combined. That's not necessarily a good thing but it's not bad either. It just means there is a Win substitute for everything.

> What about lack of all the UNIX OS features?

Same answer as above.

> What about all those billions and billions of Windows malware, viruses, adware etc.

I download a lot of crap on my home Win computer and haven't had a virus once in the past 6 or 7 years. There are likely more Android viruses active now than Windows.

> What about all the spying and restrictions that Microsoft has integrated into the Windows?

If you don't give permission the action is not taken. Granted I am currently getting spammed to update my home computer from win 7 to 10 but it hasn't force installed on me. Likewise for automatic updates.

> What about the fact that OS X and Linux have always been at least decent from developers point of view but Windows has always had problems and then things like Vista and Win8 happen.

Which is what this new initiative is trying to fix.

Don't get me wrong. I love my osx for dev and my *nix boxes for servers. But if I can get one machine/OS for desktop development of nix and windows without having to run silly emulators or switch between VMs then I'm sold.

replies(4): >>11393136 #>>11393312 #>>11393380 #>>11394437 #
6. 13of40 ◴[30 Mar 16 21:07 UTC] No.11393018[source]▶
The POSIX subsystem was removed some time around Server 2003. They replaced it with Unix Services for Windows, which was based on an acquired technology, but that's no longer available as of Windows 10. After laying fallow for so long, I really doubt they used the old multi-subsystem architecture to implement this new stuff. Could be wrong, though.
replies(1): >>11393171 #
7. pessimizer ◴[30 Mar 16 21:10 UTC] No.11393035[source]▶
I still can't believe so many developers switched to Macs after that ad campaign they ran. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually 'GNU/Linux/Windows' ultimately ended up with a majority share of developer desktops.
replies(3): >>11393094 #>>11393303 #>>11395341 #
8. EastSmith ◴[30 Mar 16 21:18 UTC] No.11393094[source]▶
What ad is that?
9. taude ◴[30 Mar 16 21:25 UTC] No.11393151[source]▶
Many of us, I'd say a majority of Devs work in an environment where you don't really have a choice, other than Windows...
replies(1): >>11394543 #
10. darreld ◴[30 Mar 16 21:26 UTC] No.11393163[source]▶
Quite a load here.

I switched to Mac for my personal development in 2001 but still used Windows at work. I have found over the last couple years that I have been migrating back to Windows for quite a few things. For me personally, I find the UI in Windows to be more productive and faster. The features Apple has been adding are not things I'm very interested in and I haven't been using my 2009 MBP for much anymore except syncing with my iPhone. A number of Linux VM's are always around for development work and if I can do it all now in Windows, I'm all in.

I've been holding off buying a new laptop and, if this new feature works as advertised I will not be buying Apple.

Haven't had malware in years. Vista and Windows 8? Advertisements? Future shit and other awfulness you can't remember? Yeah those really sound like valid points.

replies(1): >>11393263 #
11. kej ◴[30 Mar 16 21:27 UTC] No.11393171{3}[source]▶
Pretty sure the new stuff is based on the aborted attempt to get Android apps to run on Windows phones.
12. schwap ◴[30 Mar 16 21:40 UTC] No.11393248{3}[source]▶
> You being extremely lucky doesn't change statistics.

There's nothing lucky about being prudent.

13. schappim ◴[30 Mar 16 21:47 UTC] No.11393299[source]▶
I'm now seriously considering the change or at least adding this to my line up.
14. sebular ◴[30 Mar 16 21:48 UTC] No.11393303[source]▶
Out of curiosity, which ad campaign are you talking about?

As for which OS (Win/Mac/nix) controls the majority share of developer desktops, I feel like it's always going to depend on what you're developing, so talking about the overall "biggest slice of the pie" for developers is less meaningful than talking about who has the biggest slice in the consumer space.

For example, a backend web developer might look at this "Winbuntu" thing and suddenly be attracted to the idea that they could trade their Mac in for a PC that lets them do all the UNIXy stuff they need for their job, but at the end of the day lets them play the latest PC games...

...unless SteamOS continues to grow in popularity, in which case Microsoft loses share because a Linux-based laptop suddenly seems like the best choice for a gamer-developer.

On the other hand, if we're talking about a company handing work laptops out to employees, frontend developer-designers are likely to continue preferring (requiring, really) Macs for a long time to come, and that likely means that it makes more sense to keep a common platform and hand Macs out to everyone, since so many server devs are already well-accustomed to using Macs. And though Windows might eventually become attractive enough to professional designers, Linux is deeply neglected in the design-oriented space.

But that's all just web development, which has much more fluidity than other types of development. Game developers will continue to develop on the platforms that they intend to support (or Windows for consoles, at least for the time being). iOS developers will continue to develop on Macs. Mac developers will develop on Macs, Windows developers will develop on Windows, and Linux developers will develop on Linux. I'm barely an Android developer, but it seems to be slightly more natural to work on a Mac or Linux machine, and yet "Winbuntu" would likely remove that advantage.

I agree that with Windows embracing Linux so deeply like this, it certainly opens the door for a lot of people to make the switch-- personally, I bought a Surface Book because I was excited by the hardware, but quickly returned it once I realized how unhappy I was without native access to a terminal. If Ubuntu continues to flourish as a fully-fledged aspect of Windows, I might consider buying the Surface Book 2.

But my personal anecdote also illustrates the greater point-- this opens the door, but it doesn't push anyone through it. I was tempted away from Apple because they've stopped innovating on their laptops. In order for developers to switch to Windows, they'll have to be tempted for their own reasons. And old habits do die hard.

replies(2): >>11393516 #>>11395503 #
15. justin66 ◴[30 Mar 16 21:49 UTC] No.11393312[source]▶
> Windows prolly has more GUI applications than both those OSes combined.

Some perspective is needed here. Windows has more GUI applications than both those OSes combined and multiplied by some large number. A windows PC can run every Windows application made in the last twenty years, with some exceptions, and it's an infinitely larger market for commercial software.

16. peternicky ◴[30 Mar 16 22:01 UTC] No.11393380[source]▶
Well said my friend! Upvote
17. kbenson ◴[30 Mar 16 22:04 UTC] No.11393392[source]▶
If I was still stuck using an OS X box, I would definitely switch. If I was using Linux, I wouldn't. I've been forced into developing using Windows for the last few years, and for my use case (SSH to remote server to develop there), it's not that bad. There are some annoyances, but from a usage perspective, Windows 10 is actually really nice. Getting native terminal and SSH[1] support actually handles a bug chunk of my annoyances.

> - What about lack of all the Linux/OS X GUI software?

What about the lack of windows software on those platforms? It goes both ways.

> - What about lack of all the UNIX OS features?

Which features? What about the Windows OS features you do't get on a UNIX OS? Again, it goes both ways.

> - What about all those billions and billions of Windows malware, viruses, adware etc.

There are plenty of windows Viruses and malware, but I will say the most problematic security problems I've had have all been on Linux boxes. I would still count Windows as more problematic overall due to the quantity, but I believe the focus on security from Microsoft in the recent years has paid off, and it's nowhere bad as it used to be. Also, to some degree, the prevalence of malware and viruses are because of the popularity, and the popularity comes with it's own advantages (more supported software). It's a trade-off using a platform where some software you like may not be available (e.g. games).

> - What about the fact that OS X and Linux have always been at least decent from developers point of view but Windows has always had problems and then things like Vista and Win8 happen.

Am I supposed to know what this means? People have been using Windows as a development platform for a long time. Those that want to use Visual Studio still do. Windows Vista was crap, but I didn't find Windows 8 bad at all. Around Windows 7 is when it started actually being viable for me to run, and I think it's gotten consistently better over time. The biggest problem I know of that people had with Windows 8 is the start menu change, which to be honest is a really small thing, people just didn't like it and it was front and center.

- What about the advertisements served to you in the login screen?

I haven't seen any.

> - What about all the future shit MS will throw at you?

I'm not sure how this puts Windows in any different light than OS X.

> - Other stuff can't remember now

Seriously?

> - What about all the spying and restrictions that Microsoft has integrated into the Windows? (e.g. cannot block Microsoft spy server in the hosts-file, forced updates etc.)

This is valid, and would be my number one reason for not running Windows at this point if other considerations didn't outweigh it for me.

1: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH

replies(2): >>11394054 #>>11394177 #
18. llomlup ◴[30 Mar 16 22:08 UTC] No.11393419[source]▶
Although I've been a primarily C# dev for years, I gradually moved to Ubuntu, and then to OSX, all because of the better terminal/s. I like Macs, but OSX, its window management system, finder, is really bad. Having bash environment available on Windows is an incredible feat and a reason alone to reconsider Windows again. Hopefully, it won't be limited to W10.
replies(3): >>11393456 #>>11394761 #>>11394990 #
19. kbenson ◴[30 Mar 16 22:09 UTC] No.11393420{3}[source]▶
You didn't substantiate those points, so there's nothing to really counter.

Seriously, you just asked someone for a counterpoint to "other stuff I can't remember".

20. leo_mck ◴[30 Mar 16 22:11 UTC] No.11393431{3}[source]▶
I absolutely love the fact that windows download and install critical updates automatically for me. I would feel like a slave if I had to do it manually.
replies(1): >>11394143 #
21. Filthy_casual ◴[30 Mar 16 22:16 UTC] No.11393456[source]▶
Hopefully? Sorry for bursting your bubble but Windows 10 is the ONE way to go, from their perspective.
22. Rondom ◴[30 Mar 16 22:25 UTC] No.11393516{3}[source]▶
Probably a recent incident where Microsoft started showing full screen ads on the login screen is meant.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11167964

replies(1): >>11393998 #
23. komali2 ◴[31 Mar 16 00:03 UTC] No.11393998{4}[source]▶
Odd, I hadn't heard of that until now, and I spend every day in a room with ~20 people all on various windows 10 machines.
24. chillaxtian ◴[31 Mar 16 00:12 UTC] No.11394054[source]▶
> What about the lack of windows software on those platforms? It goes both ways.

i miss absolutely zero windows software.

replies(3): >>11394532 #>>11395336 #>>11395896 #
25. michaelmrose ◴[31 Mar 16 00:30 UTC] No.11394143{4}[source]▶
You kind of are a slave aren't you?

After all you can only auto update microsoft and store apps. Other apps will either handle updates themselves probably with an annoying UAC prompt and possibly at inconvenient times when you actually want to use the apps. Some have processes that constantly sit in the background sucking up your resources to pop up annoying prompts to update application foo during which you must watch for them changing your browser preferences and installing adware. Others you will simply have to go to their website and download an exe or msi.

Meanwhile you are missing the fact that people don't want to avoid automatic updates to fix security holes. They want to avoid updating to the next undesirable update foisted on the users before its ready and much to peoples annoyance. Example the windows 8 UI change.

Unbelievably staying on an older still supported platform until you are ready to update is a feature you have to pay money for!

Lest you misunderstand I'm not talking about clinging to windows xp till they claw it from your cold dead hands 3 years after end of life I'm talking about the future equivalent of staying with windows 7 and upgrading to windows 10 because 8 sucks.

replies(2): >>11394827 #>>11395351 #
26. michaelmrose ◴[31 Mar 16 00:36 UTC] No.11394177[source]▶
I think the lack of linux gui software was a comment on why a linux user wouldn't find this a compelling reason to switch not a comparison of the software available on each platform.

Personally I think someone interested in graphics/cad/audio production might find something compelling even if alternatives exist on linux for the above. I don't see much in the way of gui softare that anyone would care for as a developer. You can bring up visual studio if you like but I don't find it compelling.

27. cyphar ◴[31 Mar 16 01:38 UTC] No.11394437[source]▶
> > What about all the spying and restrictions that Microsoft has integrated into the Windows?

> If you don't give permission the action is not taken. Granted I am currently getting spammed to update my home computer from win 7 to 10 but it hasn't force installed on me. Likewise for automatic updates.

Except for the actions that the operating system doesn't tell you about, and you can't be sure about becuase it's proprietary (Windows has at least 3 backdoors and spy features that we know of, and none of them ask for permission). And all of the DRM and related malicious functionality that stops you from doing things you'd obviously want to do with your computer.

28. nl ◴[31 Mar 16 01:44 UTC] No.11394460[source]▶
In a totally non scientific survey 2/5 developers here plan to switch from our top of the line MacBooks to Windows 10 if this really works as promised.

We are a Python, Java and Scala shop.

29. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 02:03 UTC] No.11394532{3}[source]▶
Eh, games are the only thing I missed when I was exclusively Linux. Even that's changing though.
30. bluejekyll ◴[31 Mar 16 02:06 UTC] No.11394543[source]▶
Every environment I've walked into like this (unless it's Windows app development) this was only because no one tried. I joined a large web shop that was Windows Dev, but Linux deploy.

Never made sense to me. It was driven by IT because of control issues. I introduced Linux (this was 10 years ago) and then slowly ever Dev switched to develop on Linux because it was a better development experience. Unix is by hackers for hackers. IT was forced to incorporate these systems, which wasn't hard.

Now with this change I can see why people might switch back, definitely makes it easier to have Windows IT shop, but still be able to target Linux. Personally, Docker has already started resolving this issue for me, but I can see it helping Windows devotees. MS lost my trust back in 1996, and I honestly don't know what they could do to regain it, but this isn't enough for me.

31. gnaritas ◴[31 Mar 16 02:40 UTC] No.11394638{3}[source]▶
> Now days all the developer/engineer GUI apps are made OS X first, Linux second and maybe Windows.

That's not even close to true, you're living in a bubble. Windows and windows apps still dominate the world, by a long shot.

32. eggy ◴[31 Mar 16 02:50 UTC] No.11394665[source]▶
I have been running Windows, Mac OS, Linux (Minix at one point and other variants), for over 20 years. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Linux is the go to language for servers right now. I have made most of my machines dual-boot, Linux/Windows. I have given up on OS X's walled garden, and it is not as nimble as it once was. For me, the dependency hell, and trying to build an app I want to use that breaks another on Linux can eat a lot of time, and takes a lot of Googling to maybe get it working. Granted this is for possibly the type of programs I am targeting: livecoding environments like Extempore, Tidal; machine learning and CUDA/OpenCL versions and dependencies, etc... Being a problem solver, sometimes this is fun, but when trying to produce work, it can be a big time waster. I think most Linux users are tinkerers whereas there are some technically naive people who are very productive on Windows. Personally, I use programs like Clip Studio Paint on my Windows Sony tablet PC, and it is only available on Windows and Mac. For programs like these there are no acceptable Linux variations. I tried to work with GIMP for years, even writing my own scripts in it. For the present I will stick with my dual-boot machines, probably welcome this new edition to Windows, and keep hoping a new OS or variant comes along that is truly innovative. To me Linux won the contest years ago, but is not a big ball of mud. Here's to a Lisp Machine, or Forth OS, or Urbit-like system coming online. More time to waste and have fun; Linux is so 2000s!
33. intrasight ◴[31 Mar 16 03:16 UTC] No.11394761[source]▶
If you are moving back to Windows, then you are moving forward to Windows 10
34. grovulent ◴[31 Mar 16 03:30 UTC] No.11394800[source]▶
I think this move by MS is wonderful and I support it completely - but there is one concern that you've left out that makes me more worried than anything.

I'm someone who doggedly persisted trying to dev on my windows box because the stability, speed, app support, GUI niceness of windows is just far superior to Ubuntu (I won't speak to OS X since I've only done minimal dev on it). I won't go into a lengthy defense of this claim - but will if pressed.

I put up with all the failed python module installations - the hunting around for the right VisualStudio compiler... the 64bit python install issues... on and on... I put up with it all... only to be defeated in the end by various node modules failing to install because they use ridiculous depth in their directory file structure that the windows filesystem can't handle. Our projected needed those dependencies. Something had to give.

So I tried vagrant VM with virtualbox - and shared folders... so I could keep my windows GUIs without needing to sshing everything to the VM. Somehow - even though the shared folders thing means the VM is ultimately using the windows filesystem - the node modules would install okay. BUt then I had problems with symlinks (which was solveable with effort)... But the worst thing was that various files, and sometimes whole directories would randomly have their permissions changed inextricably such that NO ONE - not even an admin user could touch them. The VM would get locked out, I would get locked out... it was horrid. It happened in the middle of a rebase once. Sad times... Sad... sad times.

So - I ditched vagrant and shared folders and use a totally contained VM with the ubuntu GUI... it's slow and horrid and it makes me cry... but at least I can alt-tab and waste time in a browser in the windows GUI if I want to.

So anyhoo - my concern. This approach by MS is going to mean everything plays with the same windows file-structure yeah? Or does the ubuntu thing get it's own self contained filey-bits to play with?

Cause if the former... then I will have the fear... THE FEAR... when I try to use it.

replies(3): >>11394859 #>>11395299 #>>11395881 #
35. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 03:40 UTC] No.11394827{5}[source]▶
> Unbelievably staying on an older still supported platform until you are ready to update is a feature you have to pay money for!

You are making it sound like they are forcing, or even automatically upgrading Windows 7 to Windows 8, or Windows 8 to Windows 10. They aren't. You have to specifically choose the 8->10 update, even if you are getting updates automatically installed.

> I'm talking about the future equivalent of staying with windows 7 and upgrading to windows 10 because 8 sucks.

Which you can do. I'm not sure what exactly your complaint is here. What am I missing?

(Note: I found Windows 8 to be superior to Windows 7 in every way except the start menu. I find Windows 10 superior to Windows 8 in every way except for Privacy :/ )

replies(1): >>11396223 #
36. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 03:49 UTC] No.11394859[source]▶
> So I tried vagrant VM with virtualbox - and shared folders... so I could keep my windows GUIs without needing to sshing everything to the VM. Somehow - even though the shared folders thing means the VM is ultimately using the windows filesystem

Maybe the other way would be easier, use the VM for all dev file storage as well, and export a SMB share that you can connect to from windows. Same sharing capability (as long as the VM is running), but you don't have to worry about different underlying file system semantics.

> So - I ditched vagrant and shared folders and use a totally contained VM with the ubuntu GUI... it's slow and horrid and it makes me cry... but at least I can alt-tab and waste time in a browser in the windows GUI if I want to.

Personally, I would just SSH for access to the VM though, as I find PuTTY superior to having a desktop as a window on a desktop (I would prefer to RDP to a local Windows VM as well). But I use Vim as my IDE, so it's extremely easy for me to do so.

That said, Visual Studio announced support for targeting Linux today (I assume either through SSH to a local VM or remote box and/or the local Linux support they announced here, so that might be an acceptable route in the future.

replies(1): >>11396589 #
37. Pwngea ◴[31 Mar 16 04:25 UTC] No.11394990[source]▶
What do you dislike about Finder? Just curious.
replies(2): >>11395295 #>>11395325 #
38. sushiwarrior ◴[31 Mar 16 05:16 UTC] No.11395145[source]▶
Oh god, the node-gyp rebuild errors...
39. therealmarv ◴[31 Mar 16 05:38 UTC] No.11395209[source]▶
a lot of assumptions here. I thing the major point is that Windows will be less a pain in the ass if you have to deal and develop for Linux production systems. So IF I ever have to use Windows I don't need to deal with Cygwin anymore. But for me the biggest reason not to switch is the hardware. Sorry @all Windows folks but Macbooks are playing in another higher league for me. I would never ever switch away from Macbooks because of the build quality.
replies(1): >>11395478 #
40. cmurf ◴[31 Mar 16 06:05 UTC] No.11395295{3}[source]▶
First right-click for a session totally hangs the Finder for ~10 seconds, followed by the beachball, followed by a brief flash of the contextual menu. The next right-click works as expected.
41. qb45 ◴[31 Mar 16 06:06 UTC] No.11395299[source]▶
> So - I ditched vagrant and shared folders and use a totally contained VM with the ubuntu GUI... it's slow and horrid and it makes me cry...

Is it really that bad? At one former job I ran Ubuntu under VirtualBox with guest additions installed (new Linux team in an old MS shop).

Performance was OK, at least for the things I used - terminals, vim, Firefox. The only thing that really annoyed me in this setup was the need to switch between the VM and Outlook every now and then. Fortunately, Outlook's notifications worked even in VM running fullscreen (IIRC).

replies(1): >>11396622 #
42. copperx ◴[31 Mar 16 06:17 UTC] No.11395325{3}[source]▶
"Finder sucks" seems to be a meme perpetuated by commenters everywhere, but I have never read a convincing list of issues. When pressed, commenters have replied things like "it is well known that Finder is a big pile of crap."

I honestly have never found a problem with the Finder and miss a lot of its features (column view, drag file to file dialog, high-resolution previews for most file types, Quick View, and much more) when I'm in Windows or Linux.

43. qb45 ◴[31 Mar 16 06:20 UTC] No.11395336{3}[source]▶
I miss Windows software while on Windows.

In every release there is something removed and a new replacement to relearn.

44. qb45 ◴[31 Mar 16 06:21 UTC] No.11395341[source]▶
> I wouldn't be surprised if eventually 'GNU/Linux/Windows' ultimately ended up with a majority share of developer desktops.

As funny as it sounds, it's GNU/Windows. No Linux there - they made it work by emulating Linux.

45. leo_mck ◴[31 Mar 16 06:24 UTC] No.11395351{5}[source]▶
> "Meanwhile you are missing the fact that people don't want to avoid automatic updates to fix security holes."

You are right. My english is not very good and I did not read what OP wrote carefully about this. Maybe it was the silliness of the word "slave" being used like this that threw me off ;)

Those third apps updates can be annoying but I honestly cannot complain about all those problems you talk about, like processes sucking up resources, popups, and adware automatic installation on updates. I do not even see this happening with (very) non tech people around me. So I think it is a very suspicious argument. Even worst would be to suggest that those are problems are Microsofts blame. Maybe you get those adwares exactly because you think UAC is annoying. Can we blame Google when a user get a virus ridden app from a place other than the official store and ignore the OS warnings?

But if this is the reality, it is another good argument for the push for windows 10 update and the adoption of UWP. In fact, I think microsoft should push even harder for windows 10 updates, it is the right move.

Also, I think that the idea of maintaining a Windows machine updated with only the parts the user wants is hilarious. And I do not know who are those people you talk about. I love to test OS previews and I have never heard a person who already do not liked Microsoft for whatever reason make a big deal about a UI update (windows 8 "metro" mode was shit but easily ignored, windows 10 UI is better and amazing).

The more updates and innovation, the better. I am not afraid :)

46. dang ◴[31 Mar 16 06:27 UTC] No.11395367{3}[source]▶
Please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments to Hacker News.
47. seanp2k2 ◴[31 Mar 16 06:58 UTC] No.11395458[source]▶
Honestly it's not much better on OS X. The solution to failed npm installs is to keep running npm install until it works. If that doesn't work after about 6 times, wipe out node_modules dir and try again. Npm got lots of laughs at EmberConf this week. Everyone hates it but we all use it because it's what everyone uses.
48. seanp2k2 ◴[31 Mar 16 07:03 UTC] No.11395478[source]▶
Surface Book and things like the Razer Blade are looking to change that. Honestly your money goes further with Windows hardware, and you can get stuff like the Lenovo mobile workstation with a mobile Xeon CPU and ECC RAM. However, they can't run a blessed OS X. IMO, if Apple really wanted to mess with Microsoft, they could make OS X installable (without EFI hacking and overriding the CPU identifier etc -- yes I've had my fun with OSX86 since 10.5 days) on normal PC hardware. Their hardware would still sell because of the premium build, and they could probably charge $400 for the OS. The Dell XPS stuff is also pretty nice from what I hear.
replies(1): >>11396874 #
49. dagw ◴[31 Mar 16 07:11 UTC] No.11395503{3}[source]▶
Out of curiosity, which ad campaign are you talking about?

Apple ran a fairly successful campaign in a number of highly technical publications shortly after OS X came out pushing the concept OS X was not only Real UNIX(tm) but also that a Mac was the best Unix workstation you could buy. I'm guessing that's the one, it certainly worked on me.

Here's one of the ads: http://www.brainmapping.org/MarkCohen/UNIXad.pdf

I think there where a few others. I seem to recall one showing OS X running matlab.

50. barrkel ◴[31 Mar 16 09:07 UTC] No.11395881[source]▶
NTFS supports 32k file names; the Win32 & Win64 layers, by default, only support PATH_MAX (260) characters for backward compatibility (compatibility with Win16, ironically enough). You can opt in to longer paths by prepending paths with '\\?\' to disable path length checking, but the check itself exists in the Win* layers. I would expect the Linux layer doesn't apply this check.
replies(1): >>11396563 #
51. tychuz ◴[31 Mar 16 09:11 UTC] No.11395896{3}[source]▶
i miss absolutely zero linux software.
52. Guest91283 ◴[31 Mar 16 10:59 UTC] No.11396223{6}[source]▶
"You are making it sound like they are forcing, or even automatically upgrading Windows 7 to Windows 8, or Windows 8 to Windows 10. They aren't."

That's not true. They're automatically upgrading computers. Read some of the thousands of below comments to hear the stories. My Windows 8.1 laptop automatically scheduled itself to upgrade, and I was fortunate enough to be paying close attention to cancel it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/4a0asv/warning_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/4a5edx/psa_window...

replies(1): >>11397530 #
53. grovulent ◴[31 Mar 16 12:15 UTC] No.11396563{3}[source]▶
OMG best answer. Thank... you!
54. grovulent ◴[31 Mar 16 12:19 UTC] No.11396589{3}[source]▶
I'm using atom - I wonder if it has a plugin that will ease ssh pain... thanks for the suggest!
55. grovulent ◴[31 Mar 16 12:25 UTC] No.11396622{3}[source]▶
>Is it really that bad?

I was going to agree with you and admit I was being melodramatic...(well - I mean, saying that it makes me cry was certainly melodramatic - I don't really), but y'know what... it's definitely not ideal.

e.g. Scrolling in my ide.. sometimes lines of code don't refresh properly until I scroll back and forward a few times.

And with dev server, webpack watchers, test watchers open plus browser with a few tabs... yeah - it can get pretty sluggish. Maybe I'll try throwing a few more gig ram at the VM.

56. scholia ◴[31 Mar 16 13:13 UTC] No.11396874{3}[source]▶
> if Apple really wanted to mess with Microsoft, they could make OS X installable

Microsoft once offered to help Apple to make Mac OS a widely-used industry standard. Apple decided it would rather sell $2,500 PCs than $50 software ;-)

http://scripting.com/specials/gatesLetter/text.html

57. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 14:43 UTC] No.11397530{7}[source]▶
That was a mistake. I find it beyond belief that they would intentionally upgrade people without confirmation or notification. As much as they would like people to upgrade, they know this would be PR suicide. At a minimum they would have had notifications that it was going to happen, and made it opt out. To my mind, that it was automatically checked but in the optional updates section points towards it being a weird bug in which an unforeseen interaction of attributes caused the problem. For example, it's possible that selecting that you did want to upgrade to Windows 10 through the popups they showed was supposed to put it in that weird state, where it was optional but checked by default, which would be a non-normal situation for an update. Weird exceptions like that are very prone to bugs.
replies(1): >>11400936 #
58. justinclift ◴[31 Mar 16 22:04 UTC] No.11400936{8}[source]▶
Really wishing you were correct. :/

MS have been pushing Win10 onto Win7/8(.1) end users for what seems like a few months now, continually escalating how forceful they're being.

eg recent IT media about it:

  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/17/microsoft_windows_10_upgrade_gwx_vs_humanity/
As you mention, it seems like straight out PR suicide.

Personally, it would be useful to know what their end game is justifying all of this bad karma. It'd have to be fantastic. Either that, or someone inside MS is seriously out of control. :(

replies(1): >>11401016 #
59. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 22:16 UTC] No.11401016{9}[source]▶
While that's a wild situation, and MS is not behaving well, it's not quite forcing a Windows 10 upgrade. It's forcing people to be nagged about it, and causing problems in corporate IT departments where they do not want to upgrade and it keeps subverting their control.

It's not good, but it's not forcing upgrades either (which is liable to get them sued).

replies(1): >>11401035 #
60. justinclift ◴[31 Mar 16 22:19 UTC] No.11401035{10}[source]▶
Hmmm, I really get the impression it's doing a lot more than just nagging. Direct examples mentioned here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11285488

replies(1): >>11401173 #
61. kbenson ◴[31 Mar 16 22:42 UTC] No.11401173{11}[source]▶
Whoa, I missed that. I was thinking of the prior case where it "accidentally" became recommended, but this casts that prior episode in new light. I can't imagine what they are thinking.

Unless... There's some fundamental core security problem in earlier Windows versions that isn't in Windows 10 and they don't want to tip off anyone to what it is, because it's so large and egregious it opens them up to a lot of liability and lawsuits. Okay, I'll take my tinfoil hat off now...