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154 points walterbell | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0.391s | source | bottom
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bechampion ◴[] No.10736756[source]
the base model is 1600 usd? for an i5? It looks pretty neat but i feel like it's over priced right?
replies(3): >>10736805 #>>10736884 #>>10738275 #
TuringTest ◴[] No.10736805[source]
Where else can you get a security-focused preinstalled laptop with higher specs for less money?
replies(2): >>10736849 #>>10736869 #
1. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10736869[source]
This is security theater marketed for a steep markup.

Until they can get get an oss version of all the firmware it's just as secure as any off the shelf laptop with a clean install of the OS of your choosing.

If you want more security get an old Lenovo/IBM think pad mod the bios chip and get libreboot.

The cpu, graphics card, hdd, Ethernet and more have more lines of code in them than your OS kernel most likely and that code rarely gets audited even internally.

replies(2): >>10736910 #>>10736931 #
2. random778 ◴[] No.10736910[source]
True (to an extent), but take into account how much more expensive putting together a small amount of units (compared to say Dell) is. One really needs to go through the costing of something, even a simple PCB, to realize the orders of magnitude difference there is. Unfortunately the firmware issue is also true. If a million people bought this laptop (at 2x the price of a XPS 13) they might be able to convince someone to open up some of that firmware. But that's not going to happen.
replies(1): >>10737315 #
3. throwaway7767 ◴[] No.10736931[source]
> If you want more security get an old Lenovo/IBM think pad mod the bios chip and get libreboot.

It's a tradeoff, it depends on what you're protecting against. AFAIK none of the libreboot-supported boards have VT-d, so you lose a lot of qubes's isolation features.

It'll be a great day when we can have a fully free machine (firmware-wise) with IOMMU and some auditable form of DRTM. But we're a long way from that still.

EDIT: I also doubt the markup is steep. Software people always underestimate the cost of making hardware in small quantities. These guys don't have economy of scale on their side. You could say it's expensive compared to the competition, and you'd be right, but it's not because of greedy businessmen at purism.

replies(5): >>10736967 #>>10737359 #>>10739323 #>>10739986 #>>10740030 #
4. ◴[] No.10736967[source]
5. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10737315[source]
They more likely than not using a chinese OEM laptop, i really doubt that they spin their own motherboard even peripheral connectors require a ton of RF compliance these days.

You can get a decent core i7/i5 OEM laptop made for about 500$ these days http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Quad-core-ultrabook-i7...

Add to that some case customization and build in their specific features like wireless "kill switches" (AKA that switch all laptops used to have when wireless used to cut your battery time by half and you needed to use them on planes) and you can still get it made well under 600$, 250-300% markup is very steep in the current hardware industry.

replies(1): >>10739263 #
6. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10737359[source]
Every laptop vendor that sells re-branded / customized OEM laptops manages to stay 15-30% below the market rate of branded laptops.

I some how doubt small shops like PCSpecialist in the UK sell large volumes https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/lafiteII/

7. nickpsecurity ◴[] No.10739263{3}[source]
I'd wonder about the quality of that one. Copy-cat chips and components are a huge problem with Chinese suppliers.
replies(1): >>10740104 #
8. stcredzero ◴[] No.10739323[source]
It'll be a great day when we can have a fully free machine (firmware-wise) with IOMMU and some auditable form of DRTM.

DRTM?

replies(1): >>10740075 #
9. yuhong ◴[] No.10739986[source]
Not to mention skipping microcode updates is useless (you are already running nonfree microcode on reset) and not a good thing if you are running VMs.
10. 0xFFC ◴[] No.10740030[source]
>It's a tradeoff, it depends on what you're protecting against. AFAIK none of the libreboot-supported boards have VT-d, so you lose a lot of qubes's isolation features.

I think you are confusing the topic here. No one denying (ate least as far as I can tell) the isolation mechanism is good, and beyond any other approach we have seen already.

But the main problem is there . They just switched the topic for people who consider their privacy.

For example if you use windows let say it is filled with zero-day backdoors which can be useful for invading your privacy .

But when you use this laptop , yes if even your application has backdoor maybe they cannot go beyond the application layer. But for highly technical people this is non-sense (not visualization , no it is good idea, the idea of running whole system on closed source blobs) . Why ? because they have access to your data via low level backdoors.Maybe they have another level to circumvent (XEN), but it is there and adversary is in your laptop already.Effectively it is there.(It sounds for me like extremely secure environment on closed source blob, which ruins whole design)

But when we are talking about FSF approved laptop (the ones which run whole system on fsf approved software) there is no backdoor. Yes, maybe it is simpler to hack such device , but it is technical problem which should we work on, not a decision problem.

(Personally I think running secure microkernel on fsf approved laptop would be much better, but it is my opinion and since I don't have fact I am saying it in parenthesis)

So practically talking you are not improving privacy . You are improving security.

I hope I was clear enough , though I don't think so.

cmiiw

11. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10740075{3}[source]
Dynamic Root of Trust Measurement It's part of Intel's Trust Execution Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Execution_Technology This is basically what allows the hardware to verify that the OS which is being booted is "trusted".

Intel's TXT framework is quite nifty not fully utilized and I'm still it's not sure if it's as good as ARM's trust zone approach. The problem is that this is/will be a very important factor in any trusted computing in the future and currently it's utterly unaudited at least publicly (and from hearsay also wasn't internally audited).

Intel is pretty much mandating AMI/AMT support within the UEFI, support for TXT/TPM/NGSCB will be also mandatory soon unless Intel open sources all of this there will never be an open source UEFI BIOS which will functional with Intel going forward. Coreboot is shipped with proprietary parts which cover it, you can use Libre but then you are stuck with a decade old hardware and there is very little hope for it to ever support modern hardware the skill set way too demanding for an OSS project without a major corporate support and without full cooperation with Intel this wont be supported. If AMD was smart they would jump on this train, but as BIOS is quite a tricky business these days (probably even more complicated than OS internals with the exception of maybe really low level kernel stuff) I just don't think they want to take that risk considering their financial state.

replies(1): >>10740642 #
12. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10740104{4}[source]
I know at least 10 people that buy customized OEM laptops from various local shops in the UK the quality is on par with Dell/Lenovo upper tier products.

The OEM vendors don't make this in some basement in Shenzhen it is done very professionally and the level of customization that those laptop give the user is unparalleled today.

The PCSpec laptop's I've seen are about the same quality as my Dell XPS 15 (2014 model), some of the Macbook Air style laptop's (https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/lafiteII/ a UK startup that my friend works in bought this for the 20 or so hires they got once they got out of the incubator they are pretty flawless) I've seen are almost indistinguishable from Apple (with the exception that they are usually not unibody) and if you stick an Acer logo in the front and call them the C97somthing I would not be able to tell that this wasn't a brand product.

Now don't get me wrong if you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys but if you are paying 500-600$ for an OEM laptop you will get good quality including IPS screens and capacitive trackpads with large enough orders (10-20+).

13. stcredzero ◴[] No.10740642{4}[source]
Yes. Trusted execution that's audited and worthy of the name ("trusted") is sorely needed! This, despite the fact that people associate it with DRM and knee-jerk against it.
replies(1): >>10740792 #
14. dogma1138 ◴[] No.10740792{5}[source]
Well it can also serve as DRM it can be made so it locks your OS to only the one that your device came with out of the box and any modification would be impossible.

I wonder if MSFT would ever let OEM's lock the devices to their bloatware spec and if so how long until we get laws similar to SIM unlocks passed to give us customers some control back.

replies(1): >>10741460 #
15. stcredzero ◴[] No.10741460{6}[source]
Well it can also serve as DRM it can be made so it locks your OS to only the one that your device came with out of the box and any modification would be impossible.

Not the sort of behavior I would classify as "trustworthy".