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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

(www.nytimes.com)
623 points franzb | 9 comments | 14 Nov 15 00:25 UTC | HN request time: 0.861s | source | bottom
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usaphp ◴[14 Nov 15 02:01 UTC] No.10564013[source]▶
I don't understand how can you talk about ISIS, Nazis and Communists in the same sentence? Communism has nothing to do with violence compared to ISIS and Nazis...

Edit: Why downvotes? Idea of communism does not propose violence, Nazis and ISIS on the other hand do.

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1. andreasvc ◴[14 Nov 15 02:12 UTC] No.10564053[source]▶
There has been plenty of communist-inspired violent terrorism. Germany's RAF, Italy's Red Brigade, Japan's United Red Army, Peru's Shining Path, Columbia's FARC, Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers, etc. etc. Saying these are not real communists is just a No True Scotsman. As soon as people start believing in utopias there's a danger that they will cross a line.
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2. ◴[14 Nov 15 02:16 UTC] No.10564069[source]▶
3. coldtea ◴[14 Nov 15 02:54 UTC] No.10564203[source]▶
>As soon as people start believing in utopias there's a danger that they will cross a line.

More people have been killed in pragmatic endeavours, like colonialism, and land grab/turf wars, than from "utopias".

This includes smaller scale utopias -- far less innocent people have been killed by ...hippies than by policemen.

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4. littletimmy ◴[14 Nov 15 02:55 UTC] No.10564207[source]▶
Pan-Americanism and Capitalism are both utopian ideas.
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5. andreasvc ◴[14 Nov 15 03:21 UTC] No.10564281[source]▶
You're not contradicting anything I said, I wouldn't claim utopias are the only reason for people to become violent. I do believe that true believers such as with religions or utopias are particularly dangerous. Did you reply this way because you approve of communism?
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6. bjwbell ◴[14 Nov 15 03:34 UTC] No.10564324[source]▶
Not sure why the downvotes, I voted you up.
7. ATsch ◴[14 Nov 15 03:37 UTC] No.10564329[source]▶
Could someone who downvoted this elaborate? I'd love to hear why you don't consider Pan-americanism and capitalism(!) to be utopian
8. ◴[14 Nov 15 05:13 UTC] No.10564570[source]▶
9. coldtea ◴[14 Nov 15 14:02 UTC] No.10565689{3}[source]▶
>You're not contradicting anything I said, I wouldn't claim utopias are the only reason for people to become violent.

Well, why single them out then if both sides can be dangerous?

If you think they are the "more dangerous", then I think the previous 2 milenia of bloodshed for pragmatic land/power grabbing, including WW I, refute that.

Besides, even so-called utopians are quite pragmatic in their actions. When Mao executed tons of people, it wasn't some "utopianism" guiding him, but a very pragmatic power grab to stay in power and get rid of possible contenders.

(You might say that this was only possible because his subordinates were deluded by some utopian zeal. But lots of other cases, from the Belgian colonies and Pinochet to Indonesian "death squads", prove that you don't need that to have mass killings, just unquestioned power and the upper hand).

>Did you reply this way because you approve of communism?

No, I replied this way because I approve of utopias. The US was one too at some point -- for persecuted from Europe religious nuts.

Also because I like being objective, which needs taking all sides into account. Of any binary (utopia/pragmatism e.g.) I'd never say "the first is dangerous" if the second has been historically proved just as dangerous.