…in the US.
replies(1):
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/12436402?hl=en
I wonder if passports will come to Google soon as well - that'd open it up nationwide as long as you have a passport.
This is the big one. I've seen a lot of states where digital drivers licenses are issued, but many retailers are like "lol no, we want the card." It needs to be legally enshrined as identical.
Be watchful for legislation requiring: * us to have our ID on our person at all times. * IDs to be issued in digital format only.
I installed an RFID app from the Apple app store (3rd party, not from Apple) and it couldn't read the chip in my passport. Perhaps Apple's firmware was filtering those out at the time?
I wonder if this is some zero knowledge proofs here or what? Reading the passport and its chip implies some terminal authentication capabilities coming from Apple devices. Passport would not allow reading sensitive data from the chip unless the terminal is valid.
Another question is if Apple is allowed to read your biometric data?
They can hold onto it, and never return it. They can deface it. All of that is a possibilty.
You could argue, a sufficiently locked down phone is a better alternative. If they do something, you'll only lose $$
But they can't potentially look at your banking app, read private notes, messages and emails, operate your home automation, look at your calendar, etc. if all they have is a plastic card.
The point is that you don't have to:
> To present a Digital ID in person, users can double-click the side button or Home button to access Apple Wallet and select Digital ID. From there, they can hold their iPhone or Apple Watch near an identity reader, review the specific information being requested, and use Face ID or Touch ID to authenticate.
"hold … near … review"
If you're (e.g.) buying alcohol, then the "specific information" would be your birthday, and that is all that would be sent over. With a regular ID, verifying your age would mean handing over your physical card which would have all sorts of other non-relevant information to the task at hand.
Further:
> Only the information needed for a transaction is presented, and the user has the opportunity to review and authorize the information being requested with Face ID or Touch ID before it is shared. Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID.
AIUI, cops would have a verifying device or app and the information requested—which you authorize—is sent over wirelessly. Kind of like how you no longer have to hand over your credit/debit cards to (possibly malicious) cashiers, and just keep it in your hand and tap. (Older people may remember the carbon copy 'ka-chunk' machines.)
With a physical ID you have to hand that over because that is the only way the information can be read off of it. With a digital ID you can send a copy of your ID without physical exchange / handover.
It's pretty slick.
No ID, nor Board Pass needed.
Just walk up to TSA, and only facial recognition is needed. It's extremely fast too.
What happens if the government can now perfectly enforce that people under 18 can't do X or Y?
They’ve had some form of this for ages with Apple Pay
Hmm..
It is true that every scheme out there (that I've read about) has some flaws. But I'd rather have NSA spending their budgets and talent working on this kind of stuff, than spying on citizens or whatever they do.
The current discourse is all about identification during registration vs when voting. Which is meaningful but feels like avoiding the actual issue, as it is still not really secure either way.
The problem is the act of getting the ID itself. In most (all?) states getting an ID is not free, takes time, and if you lost everything will require jumping through a lot of hoops.
If getting an ID was actually simple, free, and not time consuming than we could have a genuine discussion about ID requirements. But until that point it is very thinly veiled classism and racism.
Also the numbers just simply don't back up this being a serious issue to begin with.
TLDR: Fix the fundamental issues with having identification in the first place and we can talk.
Identity on mobile, proprietary platforms, whose level of complexity makes it humanly impossible to understand them even for governments themselves, notoriously closely monitored and yet with a long history of bugs and problems, is UNACCEPTABLE.
It's time to understand that IT is the nervous system of society and that public information must be public, for everyone, not for a specific actor and with no specific actor being "more equal" than others.
Last time I checked, Party X only cared about Party Y’s voters who are voting illegally. They’re perfectly fine with their voters doing it.
Technology is a tool against corruption not a cure for it.
It feels healthier for the enforcement apparatus to have a budget, in terms of material personnel or time, that requires some degree of priority-setting. That priority-setting is by its nature a politically responsive process. And it’s compatible with the kind of situation that allows Really Quite Good enforcement, but not of absolutely everything absolutely all the time.
Otherwise ossification feels like exactly the word, as you said, stavros: if it costs nothing for the system to enforce stuff that was important in the hazy past but is no longer relevant, nobody wants to be the one blamed for formally easing restrictions just in case something new bad happens; 20 years later you’re still taking off your shoes at the airport. (I know, I know, they finally quit that. Still took decades. And the part that was cost-free—imaging your genitalia—continues unabated.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...
[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/trumps-ballro...
If IDs were free and incredibly easy to get, I wouldn’t care about a voter ID law.
For example, I know that Maryland DMV will even offer a translator to help you with your driving test. I'm not sure why, because all signs are in English.
I have seen exactly the opposite, that at least in Maryland and bigger states, they go out of their way to make things convenient.
Unless there is a very tight control over this - lol nope. Big stores will request as much as they can to target you with ads.
Only for it's "original" use case - traffic laws enforcement. I don't think any other entity can validate if this piece of plastic is invalidated or not. Also, it's not like information on lost ID gets erased when you get a new one: still has your address, DOB and other info that can be misused.
I'm afraid you're the wrong one here, this is our fealty to Apple paid back in due. If I have to be an ass to get people to stop buying surveillance slopware, so be it. You have no other option at this point, I'm not going to canvas for your rights as an Apple customer in 2025. This is what you support when you give them your money, enjoy!
Edit: I am addressing the OP's point. You called me wrong - I am defending my original point to OP, while illustrating why your dismissal is not relevant to the discussion.
When I was in LAX last week, facial recognition on entry was only for US citizens anyway, and for it to work they need to take a photo of you when you're leaving. I don't see how it helps ICE in any way, plus it's handled by CBP.
Also, it didn't work on me, because I left clean shaved and returned with a beard.
It's $165 per 10 years if you don't lose it or $65 if you just need in place of national ID (i.e. no international travel). I think anyone can save up that much in 10 years, renewals a bit cheaper btw.
> Local state ID cards don't prove citizenship.
No, but to get a Real ID in any state you have to prove you're in the country legally, and in some states to get any form of ID you have to prove that.
I once had three valid drivers' licenses, because my wallet was stolen (later returned), and I left my ID at a bar. All three were valid for use at the same time despite being reported lost/stolen - they had identical barcodes, etc.
You normally aren't carrying your passport with you, right? So even if lower security, the chance of that information being swiped is generally lower.
Phones are pretty high profile targets, this makes them more so.
I do like the idea and the convenience, but I'm definitely wary of these things too. Especially in the modern tech world where security is often being treated as a second thought as it is less impactful for sales. I'm pretty sure it is always cheaper to implement the security, but right now we're not great at playing long games and we like to gamble. Humans have always been pretty bad at opportunity costs. We see the dollars spent now and that seems to have far more value than what you save later.
On the other hand, currently US citizens are not legally required to walk around with their IDs on them. That's not true for non-citizens btw. You should have to just give the officer your name, but they can detain you while they "verify your identity." With an ID becoming frictionless and more commonly held on person, will this law change? Can we trust that it'll stay the same given our current environment of more frequent ID requests (I'm trying to stay a bit apolitical. Let's not completely open up that issue here?). I'd say at best it is "of concern." But we do live in a world run by surveillance capitalism.
There's a really good example I like of opportunity cost that shows the perverse nature of how we treat them. Look at the Y2K bug. Here on HN most of us know this was a real thing that would have cost tons of money had we not fixed it. But we did. The success was bittersweet though, as the lack of repercussions (the whole point of fixing the problem!) resulted in people believing the issue was overblown. Most people laugh at Y2K as if it was a failed doomsday prediction rather than a success story of how we avoided a "doomsday" (to be overly dramatic) situation. So we create a situation where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you do fix a problem, people treat you as if you were exaggerating the problem. If you don't fix the problem you get lambasted for not having foreseen the issue, but you do tend to be forgiven for fixing it.
Just remember, CloudStrike's stock is doing great[0] ($546). Had you bought the dip ($218) you'd have made a 150% ROI. They didn't even drop to where they were a year previously, so had you bought in July of 2023 ($144) and sold in the dip you'd have still made a 50% profit in that year... (and 280% if you sold today).
Convince me we're good at playing the long game... Convince me we're not acting incredibly myopic... Convince me CloudStrike learned their lesson and the same issue won't happen again...
No to all of that? Passport book (which you don't need unless you travel internationally) cost 165 USD per 10 years.
Time-consuming...it's a one short trip to local-ish post office (not every post office has passport services). Sure, it's appointment only and only M-F, but you need to do it once every 10 years.
Non-English speakers... You have to pass a basic English test for naturalization, and if you're born here, you probably should speak at least basic English. It's one form as you have to fill out online.
Objectively, it's easier for a service worker to get shit done during the workweek than for 9-5 salaried.
Anyway, California got it right: applied for Real ID? Want to register to vote or update your registration while you're at it? And it cost like $40 (depending on state)
IDs are cheap and easy to get, and I wouldn't want a person who can't figure something that simple to have any voice on the federal level.
Also, you need an ID to buy some OTC medicine and to pick up some prescribed medicine. As well some other cases when ID needs to be presented, but those probably require more than just DOB anyway.