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gdiamos ◴[] No.45898849[source]
Transmeta made a technology bet that dynamic compilation could beat OOO super scalar CPUs in SPEC.

It was wrong, but it was controversial among experts at the time.

I’m glad that they tried it even though it turned out to be wrong. Many of the lessons learned are documented in systems conferences and incorporated into modern designs, ie GPUs.

To me transmeta is a great example of a venture investment. If it would have beaten Intel at SPEC by a margin, it would have dominated the market. Sometimes the only way to get to the bottom of a complex system is to build it.

The same could be said of scaling laws and LLMs. It was theory before Dario, Ilya, OpenAI, et al trained it.

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pshirshov ◴[] No.45899126[source]
Aren't modern CPUs, essetially, dynamic translators from x86_64 instruction set into internal RISC-like intsruction sets?
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1. pizlonator ◴[] No.45901534[source]
Folks like to say that, but that's not what's happening.

The key difference is: what is an instruction set? Is it a Turing-complete thing with branches, calls, etc? Or is it just data flow instructions (math, compares, loads and stores, etc)?

X86 CPUs handle branching in the frontend using speculation. They predict where the branch will go, issue data flow instructions from that branch destination, along with a special "verify that I branched to the right place" instruction, which is basically just the compare portion of the branch. ARM CPUs do the same thing. In both X86 and ARM CPUs, the data flow instructions that the CPU actually executes look different (are lower level, have more registers) than the original instruction set.

This means that there is no need to translate branch destinations. There's never a place in the CPU that has to take a branch destination (an integer address in virtual memory) in your X86 instruction stream and work out what the corresponding branch destination is in the lower-level data flow stream. This is because the data flow stream doesn't branch; it only speculates.

On the other hand, a DBT has to have a story for translating branch destinations, and it does have to target a full instruction set that does have branching.

That said, I don't know what the Transmeta CPUs did. Maybe they had a low-level instruction set that had all sorts of hacks to help the translation layer avoid the problems of branch destination translation.

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2. monocasa ◴[] No.45903210[source]
> That said, I don't know what the Transmeta CPUs did. Maybe they had a low-level instruction set that had all sorts of hacks to help the translation layer avoid the problems of branch destination translation.

Fixed guest branches just get turned into host branches and work like normal.

Indirect guest branches would get translated through a hardware jump address cache that was structured kind of like TLB tag lookups are.

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3. pizlonator ◴[] No.45903329[source]
Thank you for sharing!

> Fixed guest branches just get turned into host branches and work like normal.

How does that work in case of self-modifying code, or skewed execution (where the same x86 instruction stream has two totally different interpretations based on what offset you start at)?

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4. monocasa ◴[] No.45904427{3}[source]
Skewed execution are just different traces. Basic blocks don't have a requirement that they don't partially overlap with other basic blocks. You want that anyway for optimization reasons even without skewed execution.

Self modifying code is handled with MMU traps on the writes, and invalidation of the relevant traces. It is very much a slow path though. Ideally heavy self modfying code is able to stay in the interpreter though and not thrash in and out of the compiler.

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5. pizlonator ◴[] No.45905474{4}[source]
> Self modifying code is handled with MMU traps on the writes, and invalidation of the relevant traces. It is very much a slow path though. Ideally heavy self modfying code is able to stay in the interpreter though and not thrash in and out of the compiler.

This might end up having a bad time running JavaScript VM JITed code, which self-modifies a lot.

But all of that makes sense! Thanks!

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6. monocasa ◴[] No.45905778{5}[source]
Yeah, nesting JITs was kind of always an Achilles heel of this kind of architecture.

IIRC, they had a research project to look at shipping a custom JVM that compiled straight to their internal ISA to skip the impedance mismatch between two JITs. JITed JS (or really any extremely dynamic code that also asks for high perf) probably wasn't even on their radar given the era with even the SmallTalk VM that HotSpot derived from being a strongly typed derivative of SmallTalk.