FFmpeg to Google: Fund us or stop sending bugs

My takeaway from the article was not that the report was a problem, but a change in approach from Google that they’d disclose publicly after X days, regardless of if the project had a chance to fix it.

To me its okay to “demand” from a for profit company (eg google) to fix an issue fast. Because they have ressources. But to “demand” that an oss project fix something with a certain (possibly tight) timeframe.. well I’m sure you better than me, that that’s not who volunteering works

On the other hand as an ffmpeg user do you care? Are you okay not being told a tool you're using has a vulnerability in it because the devs don't have time to fix it? I mean someone could already be using the vulnerability regardless of what Google does.

That is standard practice. It is considered irresponsible to not publicly disclose any vulnerability.

The X days is a concession to the developers that the public disclosure will be delayed to give them an opportunity to address the issue.

They could be, and the chances of that increase immensely once Google publishes it.

Sure but how.

Let's say that FFMPEG has a 10 CVE where a very easy stream can cause it to RCE. So what?

We are talking about software commonly for end users deployed to encode their own media. Something that rarely comes in untrusted forms. For an exploit to happen, you need to have a situation where an attacker gets out a exploited media file which people commonly transcode via FFMPEG. Not an easy task.

This sure does matter to the likes of google assuming they are using ffmpeg for their backend processing. It doesn't matter at all for just about anyone else.

You might as well tell me that `tar` has a CVE. That's great, but I don't generally go around tarring or untarring files I don't trust.

AIUI, (lib)ffmpeg is used by practically everything that does anything with video, including such definitely-security-sensitive things as Chrome, which people use to play untrusted content all the time.

The entire conflict here is that norms about what's considered responsible were developed in a different context, where vulnerability reports were generated at a much lower rate and dedicated CVE-searching teams were much less common. FFmpeg says this was "AI generated bug reports on an obscure 1990s hobby codec"; if that's accurate (I have no reason to doubt it, just no time to go check), I tend to agree that it doesn't make sense to apply the standards that were developed for vulnerabilities like "malicious PNG file crashes the computer when loaded".

> My takeaway from the article was not that the report was a problem, but a change in approach from Google that they’d disclose publicly after X days, regardless of if the project had a chance to fix it.

That is not an accurate description? Project Zero was using a 90 day disclosure policy from the start, so for over a decade.

What changed[0] in 2025 is that they disclose earlier than 90 days that there is an issue, but not what the issue is. And actually, from [1] it does not look like that trial policy was applied to ffmpeg.

> To me its okay to “demand” from a for profit company (eg google) to fix an issue fast. Because they have ressources. But to “demand” that an oss project fix something with a certain (possibly tight) timeframe.. well I’m sure you better than me, that that’s not who volunteering works

You clearly know that no actual demands or even requests for a fix were made, hence the scare quotes. But given you know it, why call it a "demand"?

[0] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2025/07/reporting-tra..., discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44724287

[1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/p/reporting-transpare...

Ffmpeg is a versatile toolkit used in lot of different places.

I would be shocked if any company working with user generated video from the likes of zoom or TikTok or YouTube to small apps all over which do not have it in their pipeline somewhere.

hmm, didn't realize chrome was using ffmpeg in the background. That definitely makes it more dangerous than I supposed.

Looks like firefox does the same.

Upload a video to YouTube or Vimeo. They almost certainly run it through ffmpeg.

It is accurate. This is a codec that was added for archival and digital preservation purposes. It’s like adding a Unicode block for some obscure 4000 year old dead language that we have a scant half dozen examples of writing.

Firefox has moved some parsers to Rust: https://github.com/mozilla/mp4parse-rust

This is a fantastic argument for the universe where Google does not disclose vulnerability until the maintainers had had reasonable time to fix it.

In this world the user is left vulnerable because attackers can use published vulnerabilities that the maintainers are to overwhelmed to fix

> That is standard practice.

It's standard practice for commercially-sponsored software, and it doesn't necessarily fit volunteer maintained software. You can't have the same expectations.

ffmpeg is also megabytes of parsing code, whereas tar is barely a parser.

It would be surprising to find memory corruption in tar in 2025, but not in ffmpeg.

If you use a trillion dollar AI to probe open source code in ways that no hacker could, you're kind of unearthing the vulnerabilities yourself if you disclose them.

I think the discussion on what standard practice should be does need to be had. This seems to be throwing blame at people following the current standard.

If the obscure coded is not included by default or cannot be triggered by any means other than being explicitly asked for, then it would be reasonable to tag it Won't Fix. If it can be triggered by other means, such as auto file type detection on a renamed file, then it doesn't matter how obscure the feature is, the exploit would affect all.

What is the alternative to a time limited embargo. I don't particularly like the idea of groups of people having exploits that they have known about for ages that haven't been publicly disclosed. That is the kind of information that finds itself in the wrong hands.

Of course companies should financially support the developers of the software they depend upon. Many do this for OSS in the form of having a paid employee that works on the project.

Specifically, FFMPEG seems to have a problem that much of their limitation of resources comes from them alienating contributors. This isn't isolated to just this bug report.

This program discloses security issues to the projects and only discloses them after they have had a "reasonable" chance to fix it though, and projects can request extensions before disclosure if projects plan to fix it but need more time.

Google runs this security program even on libraries they do not use at all, where it's not a demand, it's just whitehat security auditing. I don't see the meaningful difference between Google doing it and some guy with a blog doing it here.

Here's the question:

Why is Google deliberately running an AI process to find these bugs if they're just going to dump them all on the FFmpeg team to fix?

They have the option to pay someone to fix them.

They also have the option to not spend resources finding the bugs in the first place.

If they think these are so damn important to find that it's worth devoting those resources to, then they can damn well pay for fixing them too.

Or they can shut the hell up and let FFmpeg do its thing in the way that has kept it one of the https://xkcd.com/2347/ pieces of everyone's infrastructure for over 2 decades.

The user is vulnerable while the problem is unfixed. Google publishing a vulnerability doesn't change the existence of the vulnerability. If Google can find it, so can others.

Making the vulnerability public makes it easy to find to exploit, but it also makes it easy to find to fix.

>Are you okay not being told a tool you're using has a vulnerability in it because the devs don't have time to fix it?

Yes? It's in the license

>NO WARRANTY

>15. BECAUSE THE LIBRARY IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE LIBRARY, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE LIBRARY "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

If I really care, I can submit a patch or pay someone to. The ffmpeg devs don't owe me anything.

Firefox also does a lot of media decoding in a separate process.

I would love to see Google contribute here, but I think that's a different issue.

Are the bug reports accurate? If so, then they are contributing just as if I found them and sent a bug report, I'd be contributing. Of course a PR that fixes the bug is much better than just a report, but reports have value, too.

The alternative is to leave it unfound, which is not a better alternative in my opinion. It's still there and potentially exploitable even when unreported.

Then maybe the Google chrome devs should submit a PR to ffmpeg.

Google is a significant contributor to ffmpeg by way of VP9/AV1/AV2. It's not like it's a gaping maw of open-source abuse, the company generally provides real value to the OSS ecosystem at an even lower level than ffmpeg (which is saying a lot, ffmpeg is pretty in-the-weeds already).

As to why they bother finding these bugs... it's because that's how Google does things. You don't wait for something to break or be exploited, you load your compiler up with santizers and go hunting for bugs.

Yeah this one is kind of trivial, but if the bug-finding infrastructure is already set up it would be even more stupid if Google just sat on it.

If it is so easy to fix, then why doesn't Google fix it? So far they've spent more effort in spreading knowledge about the vulnerability than fixing it, so I don't agree with your assessment that Google is not actively making the world worse here.

As clearly stated, most users of ffmpeg are unaware of them using it. Even them knowing about a vulnerability in ffmpeg, they wouldn't know they are affected.

Really, the burden is on those shipping products that depend on ffmpeg: they are the ones who have to fix the security issues for their customers. If Google is one of those companies, they should provide the fix in the given time.

I didn't say it was easy to fix. I said a publication made it easy to find it, if someone wanted to fix something.

If you want to fix up old codecs in ffmpeg for fun, would you rather have a list of known broken codecs and what they're doing wrong; or would you rather have to find a broken codec first.

Sure. And fund them.

Not being told the existence of bugs is different from having a warranty on software. How would you submit a patch on a bug you were not aware of?

Google should provide a fix but it's been standard to disclose a bug after a fixed time because the lack of disclosure doesn't remove the existence of the bug. This might have to be rethought in the context of OSS bugs but an MIT license shouldn't mean other people can't disclose bugs in my project.

Vulnerabilities should be publicly disclosed. Both closed and open source software are scrutinized by the good and the bad people; sitting on vulnerabilities isn't good.

Consumers of closed source software have a pretty reasonable expectation that the creator will fix it in a timely manner. They paid money, and the (generally) the creator shouldn't put the customer in a nasty place because of errors.

Consumers of open source software should have zero expectation that someone else will fix security issues. Individuals should understand this; it's part of the deal for us using software for free. Organizations that are making money off of the work of others should have the opposite of an expectation that any vulns are fixed. If they have or should have any concern about vulnerabilities in open source software, then they need to contribute to fixing the issue somehow. Could be submitting patches, paying a contractor or vendor to submit patches, paying a maintainer to submit patches, or contributing in some other way that betters the project. The contribution they pick needs to work well with the volunteers, because some of the ones I listed would absolutely be rejected by some projects -- but not by others.

The issue is that an org like Google, with its absolute mass of technical and financial resources, went looking for security vulnerabilities in open source software with the pretense of helping. But if Google (or whoever) doesn't finish the job, then they're being a piece of shit to volunteers. The rest of the job is reviewing the vulns by hand and figuring out patches that can be accepted with absolutely minimal friction.

To your point, the beginning of the expectation should be that vulns are disclosed, since otherwise we have known insecure software. The rest of the expectation is that you don't get to pretend to do a nice thing while _knowing_ that you're dumping more work on volunteers that you profit from.

In general, wasting the time of volunteers that you're benefiting from is rude.

Specifically, organizations profiting off of volunteer work and wasting their time makes them an extractive piece of shit.

Stop being a piece of shit, Google.

The fact that details of the issue _will_ be disclosed publicly is an implicit threat. Sure it's not an explicit threat, but it's definitely an implicit threat. So the demand, too, is implicit: fix this before we disclose publicly, or else your vulnerability will be public knowledge.

> If Google can find it, so can others.

While true, Only Google has google infrastructure, this presupposes that 100% of all published exploits would be findable.

When you publicize a vulnerability you know someone doesn't have the capacity to fix according to the requested timeline, you are simultaneously increasing the visibility of the vulnerability and name-calling the maintainers. All of this increases the pressure on the maintainers, and it's fair to call that a "demand" (quotes-included). Note that we are talking about humans who will only have their motivation dwindle: it's easy to say that they should be thick-skinned and ignore issues they can't objectively fix in a timely manner, but it's demoralizing to be called out like that when everyone knows you can't do it, and you are generally doing your best.

It's similar to someone cooking a meal for you, and you go on and complain about every little thing that could have been better instead of at least saying "thank you"!

Here, Google is doing the responsible work of reporting vulnerabilities. But any company productizing ffmpeg usage (Google included) should sponsor a security team to resolve issues in high profile projects like these too.

Sure, the problem is that Google is a behemoth and their internal org structure does not cater to this scenario, but this is what the complaint is about: make your internal teams do the right thing by both reporting, but also helping fix the issue with hands-on work. Who'd argue against halving their vulnerability finding budget and using the other half to fund a security team that fixes highest priority vulnerabilities instead?

All the license means is that I can’t sue them. It doesn’t mean I have to like it.

Just because software makes no guarantees about being safe doesn’t mean I want it to be unsafe.

Nobody is demanding anything. Google is just disclosing issues.

This opens up transparency of ffmpeg’s security posture, giving others the chance to fix it themselves, isolate where it’s run or build on entirely new foundations.

All this assuming the reports are in fact pointing to true security issues. Not talking about AI-slop reports.

Then they can damn well pay for fixing them too.

But FFmpeg does not have the resources to fix these at the speed Google is finding them.

It's just not possible.

So Google is dedicating resources to finding these bugs

and feeding them to bad actors.

Bad actors who might, hypothetically have had the information before, but definitely do once Google publicizes them.

You are talking about an ideal situation; we are talking about a real situation that is happening in the real world right now, wherein the option of Google reports bug > FFmpeg fixes bug simply does not exist at the scale Google is doing it at.

If the software makes no guarantees about being safe, then you should assume it is unsafe.

In my case, yes, but my pipeline is closed. Processes run on isolated instances that are terminated without haste as soon as workflow ends. Even if uncaught fatal errors occur, janitor scripts run to ensure instances are terminated on a fast schedule. This isn't something running on my personal device with random content that was provided by unknown someone on the interwebs.

So while this might be a high security risk because it possibly could allow RCE, the real-world risk is very low.

> When you publicize a vulnerability you know someone doesn't have the capacity to fix according to the requested timeline

My understanding is that the bug in question was fixed about 100 times faster than Project Zero's standard disclosure timeline. I don't know what vulnerability report your scenario is referring to, but it certainly is not this one.

> and name-calling the maintainers

Except Google did not "name-call the maintainers" or anything even remotely resembling that. You just made it up, just like GP made up the the "demands". It's pretty telling that all these supposed misdeeds are just total fabrications.

Have you ever used a piece of software that DID make guarantees about being safe?

Every software I've ever used had a "NO WARRANTY" clause of some kind in the license. Whether an open-source license or a EULA. Every single one. Except, perhaps, for public-domain software that explicitly had no license, but even "licenses" like CC0 explicitly include "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no representations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work ..."

Google is a multi-billion dollar company, which is paying people to find these bugs in the first place.

That's a pretty core difference.

Many people are already developing and fixing FFmpeg.

How many people are actively looking for bugs? Google, and then the other guys that don't share their findings, but perhaps sell them to the highest bidder. Seems like Google is doing some good work by just picking big, popular open source projects and seeing if they have bugs, even if they don't intend to fix them. And I doubt Google was actually using the Lucas Arts video format their latest findings were about.

However, in my mind the discussion whether Google should be developing FFmpeg (beyond the codec support mentioned elsewhere in the thread) or other OSS projects is completely separate from whether they should be finding bugs in them. I believe most everyone would agree they should. They are helping OSS in other ways though, e.g. https://itsfoss.gitlab.io/post/google-sponsors-1-million-to-... .

Anyone who has seen how the software is sausaged knows that. Security flaws will happen, no matter what the lawyers put in the license.

And still, we live in a society. We have to use software, bugs or not.

>If Google can find it, so can others.

What a strange sentence. Google can do a lot of things that nobody can do. The list of things that only Google, a handful of nation states, and a handful of Google-peers can do is probably even longer.

A solution definitely ought to be found. Google putting up a few millionths of a percent of their revenue or so towards fixing the bugs they find in ffmpeg would be the ideal solution here, certainly. Yet it seems unlikely to actually occur.

I think the far more likely result of all the complaints is that Google simply completely disengages from ffmpeg and stops doing any security work on it. I think that would be quite bad for the security of the project - if Google can trivially find bugs at a high speed such that it overwhelms the ffmpeg developers, I would imagine bad actors can also search for them and find those same vulnerabilities Google is constantly finding, and if they know that those vulnerabilities very much exist, but that Google has simply stopped searching for them upon demand of the ffmpeg project, this would likely give them extremely high motivation to go looking in a place they can be almost certain they'll find unreported/unknown vulnerabilities in. The result would likely be a lot more 0-day attacks involving ffmpeg, which I do not think anyone regards as a good outcome (I would consider "Google publishes a bunch of vulnerabilities ffmpeg hasn't fixed so that everyone knows about them" to be a much preferable outcome, personally)

Now, you might consider that possibility fine - after all, the ffmpeg developers have no obligation to work on the project, and thus to e.g. fix any vulnerabilities in it. But if that's fine, then simply ignoring the reports Google currently makes is presumably also fine, no ?

That's not a choice. You can decide if Google files bugs like this or not, you can't force them to fix them.

Sure, but running a fuzzer on ancient codecs isn't that special. I can't do it, but if I wanted to learn how, codecs would be a great place to start. (in fact, Google did some of their early fuzzing work in 2012-2014 on ffmpeg [1]) Media decoders have been the vector for how many zero interaction, high profile attacks lately? Media decoders were how many of the Macromedia Flash vulnerabilities? Codecs that haven't gotten any new media in decades but are enabled in default builds are a very good place to go looking for issues.

Google does have immense scale that makes some things easier. They can test and develop congestion control algorithms with world wide (ex-China) coverage. Only a handful of companies can do that; nation states probably can't. Google isn't all powerful either, they can't make Android updates really work even though it might be useful for them.

[1] https://security.googleblog.com/2014/01/ffmpeg-and-thousand-...

not possible to guarantee safety

Publishing the vulnerability is a demand to fix it. It threatens to cause harm to the reputation of the maintainer if left unfixed.

FFMPEG does autodetection of what is inside a file, the extension doesn't really matter. So it's trivial to construct a video file that's labelled .mp4 but is really using the vulnerable codec and triggers its payload upon playing it. (Given ffmpeg is also used to generate thumbnails in Windows if installed, IIRC, just having a trapped video file in a directory could be dangerous.)

There are alternatives such as gstreamer and proprietary options. I can’t give names, but can confirm at least two moderately sized startups that use gstreamer in their media pipeline instead of ffmpeg (and no, they don’t use gst-libav).

One because they are a rust shop and gstreamer is slightly better supported in that realm (due to an official binding), the other because they do complex transformations with the source streams at a basal level vs high-level batch transformations/transcoding.

No, publishing the vulnerability is the right thing to do for a secure world because anyone can find this stuff including nation states that weaponize it. This is a public service. Giving the dev a 90 day pre warn is a courtesy.

Expecting a reporter to fix your security vulnerabilities for you is entitlement.

If your reputation is harmed by your vulnerable software, then fix the bugs. They didn’t create the hazzard they discovered it. You created it, and acting like you’re entitled to the free labor of those that gave you the heads up is insane, and trying to extort them for their labor is even worse.

Google publicly disclosing the bug doesn't only let affected users know. It also lets attackers know how they can exploit the software.

Holding public disclosure over the heads of maintainers if they don't act fast enough is damaging not only to the project, but to end users themselves also. There was no pressing need to publicly disclose this 25 year old bug.

I don't know what our contract terms were for security issues, but I've certainly worked on a product where we had 5 figure penalties for any processing errors or any failures of our system to perform its actions by certain times of day. You can absolutely have these things in a contract if you pay for it, and mass market software that you pay for likely also has some implied merchantability depending on jurisdiction.

But yes things you get for free have no guarantees and there should be no expectations put in the gift giver beyond not being actively intentionally malicious.

I have about 100x as much sympathy for an open source project getting time to fix a security bug than I do a multibillion dollar company with nearly infinite resources essentially blackmailing a small team of developers like this. They could -easily- pay a dev to fix the bug and send the fix to ffmpeg.

This is all true(maybe not the extortion being worse hard to say), but it doesnt change the fact that publishing the CVE is a demand to fix it.

Corporate Social Responsibility? The assumption is that the work is good for end users. I don't know if that's the case for the maintainers though.

How is having a disclosure policy so that you balance the tradeoffs between informing people and leaving a bug unreported "holding" anything over the heads of the maintainers? They could just file public bug reports from the beginning. There's no requirement that they file non-public reports first, and certainly not everyone who does file a bug report is going to do so privately. If this is such a minuscule bug, then whether it's public or not doesn't matter. And if it's not a minuscule bug, then certainly giving some private period, but then also making a public disclosure is the only responsible thing to do.

Great, so Google is actively spending money on making open source projects better and more secure. And for some reason everyone is now mad at them for it because they didn't also spend additional money making patches themselves. We can absolutely wish and ask that they spend some money and resources on making those patches, but this whole thing feels like the message most corporations are going to take is "don't do anything to contribute to open source projects at all, because if you don't do it just right, they're going to drag you through the mud for it" rather than "submit more patches"

But how are those companies supposed to know they need to do anything unless someone finds and publicly reports the issue in the first place? Surely we're not advocating for a world where every vendor downstream of the ffmpeg project independently discovers and patches security vulnerabilities without ever reporting the issues upstream right?

Since when are bug reports blackmail? If some retro game enthusiast discovered this bug and made a blog post about it that went to the front page of HN, is that blackmail? If someone running a fuzzer found this bug and dumped a public bug report into github is that blackmail? What if google made this report privately, but didn't say anything about when they would make it public and then just went public at some arbitrary time in the future? How is "heads up, here's a bug we found, here's the reproduction steps for it, we'll file a public bug report on it soon" blackmail?

Point. As part of a negotiated contract, some companies might indeed put in guarantees of software quality; I've never worked in the nuclear industry or any other industries where that would be required, so my perspective was a little skewed. But all mass-distributed software I've ever seen or heard of, free or not, has that "no warranty" clause, and only individual contracts are exceptions.

Also, "depending on jurisdiction" is a good point as well. I'd forgotten how often I've seen things like "Offer not valid in the state of Delaware/California/wherever" or "If you live in Tennessee, this part of the contract is preempted by state law". (All states here are pulled out of a hat and used for examples only, I'm not thinking of any real laws).

> When you publicize a vulnerability you know someone doesn't have the capacity to fix according to the requested timeline, you are simultaneously increasing the visibility of the vulnerability and name-calling the maintainers.

So how long should all bug reporters wait before filing public bugs against open source projects? What about closed source projects? Anyone who works in software knows to ship software is to always have way more things to do than time to do it in. By this logic, we should never make bug reports public until the software maintainers (whether OSS, Apple or Microsoft) has a fix ready. Instead of "with enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" the new policy going forward I guess will be "with enough blindfolds, all bugs are low priority".

So no one should file public bug reports for open source software?

So to be clear, if Google doesn't include patches, you would rather they don't make bugs they find in software public so other people can fix them?

That is, you'd rather a world where Google either does know about a vulnerability and refuses to tell anyone, or just doesn't look for them at all, over a world where google looks for them and lets people know they exist, but doesn't submit their own fix for it.

Why do you want that world? Why do you want corporations to reduce the already meager amounts of work and resources they put into open source software even further?

They're actively making open source projects less secure by publishing bugs that the projects don't have the volunteers to fix

I saw another poster say something about "buggy software". All software is buggy.

Come on, we let this argument die a decade ago. Disclosure timelines that match what the software author wants is a courtesy, not a requirement.

Publishing bugs that the project has so that they can be fixed is actively making the project more secure. How is someone going to do anything about it if Google didn’t do the research?

You should not be threatened by the fact that your software has security holes in it being made public knowledge. If you are, then your goals are fundamentally misaligned with making secure software.

No, it is a request to fix it. How the maintainer feels about it is up to them.

This is standard practice for Linux as well.

> If Google can find it, so can others.

Not really. It requires time, ergo money.

> Why is Google deliberately running an AI process to find these bugs if they're just going to dump them all on the FFmpeg team to fix?

This is called fuzzing and it has been standard practice for over a decade. Nobody has had any problem with it until FFmpeg decided they didn’t like that AI filed a report against them and applied the (again, mostly standard at this point) disclosure deadline. FWIW, nobody would have likely cared except they went on their Twitter to complain, so now everyone has an opinion on it.

There are certainly features and use cases where gstreamer is better fit than ffmpeg.

My point was it would be hard to imagine eschewing ffmpeg completely, not that there is no value for other tools and ffmpeg is better at everything. It is so versatile and ubiquitous it is hard to not use it somewhere.

In my experience there usually is always some scenarios in the stack where throwing in ffmpeg for a step is simpler and easier even if there no proper language binding etc, for some non-core step or other.

From a security context that wouldn't matter, As long it touches data, security vulnerabilities would be a concern.

It would be surprising, not that it would impossible to forgo ffmpeg completely. It would be just like this site is written Lisp, not something you would typically expect not impossible.

Did you see how the FFMPEG project patched a bug for a 1995 console? That's not a good use for the limited amount of volunteers on the project. It actively makes it less secure by taking away from more pertinent bugs.

Then they should mark it as low priority and put it in their backlog. I trust that the maintainers are good judges of what deserves their time.

No, it is a notice to others that your software as-is is insecure in some way. The pre notice is again a courtesy if you want to fix it.

What you do with the notice as a dev is up to you, but responsible ones would fix it without throwing a tantrum.

Devs need to stop thinking of themselves as the main character and things get a lot more reasonable.

The bug exists whether or not google publishes a public bug report. They are no more making the project less secure than if some retro-game enthusiast had found the same bug and made a blog post about it.

If widely deployed infrastructure software is so full of vulnerabilities that its maintainers can't fix them as fast as they're found, maybe it shouldn't be widely deployed, or they shouldn't be its maintainers. Disabling codecs in the default build that haven't been used in 30 years might be a good move, for example.

Either way, users need to know about the vulnerabilities. That way, they can make an informed tradeoff between, for example, disabling the LucasArts Smush codec in their copy of ffmpeg, and being vulnerable to this hole (and probably many others like it).

A request to fix it would be privately telling the maintainers about the issue. Publicly releasing it is a demand.

The actual real alternative is that the ffmpeg maintainers quit, just like the libxml2 maintainer did.

A lot of these core pieces of infrastructure are maintained by one to three middle-aged engineers in their free time, for nothing. Meanwhile, billion dollar companies use the software everywhere, and often give nothing back except bug reports and occasional license violations.

I mean, I love "responsible disclosure." But the only result of billion dollar corporations drowning a couple of unpaid engineers in bug reports is that the engineers will walk away and leave the code 100% unmaintained.

And yeah, part of the problem here is that C-based data parsers and codecs are almost always horrendously insecure. We could rewrite it all in Rust (and I have in fact rewritten one obscure codec in Rust) or WUFFS. But again, who's going to pay for that?

> they shouldn't be its maintainers.

I mean, yes, the ffmpeg maintainers are very likely to decide this on their own, abandoning the project entirely. This is already happening for quite a few core open source projects that are used by multiple billion-dollar companies and deployed to billions of users.

A lot of the projects probably should be retired and rewritten in safer system languages. But rewriting all of the widely-used projects suffering from these issues would likely cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

The alternative is that maybe some of the billion-dollar companies start making lists of all the software they ship to billions of users, and hire some paid maintainers through the Linux or Apache Foundations.

This is not how filing issues against open source software works.

I wasn’t countering your point, I just wanted to add that there are alternatives (well, an alternative in the OSS sphere) that are viable and well used outside of ffmpeg despite its ubiquity.

The codec can be triggered to run automatically by adversarial input. The irrelevance of the format is itself irrelevant when ffmpeg has it on by default.

which bad actors would have more of, as they'd have a financial incentive to make use of the found vulnerabilities. White hats don't get anything in return (financially) - it's essentially charity work.

you'd assume that a bad actor would have found the exploit and kept it hidden for their own use. To assume otherwise is fundamentally flawed security practice.

why are the standards and expectation different for google vs an independent researcher? Just because they are richer, doesn't mean they should be held to a standard that isn't done for an independent researcher.

The OSS maintainer has the responsibility to either fix, or declare they won't fix - both are appropriate actions, and they are free to make this choice. The consumer of OSS should have the right to know what vulns/issues exist in the package, so that they make as informed a decision as they can (such as adding defense in depth for vulns that the maintainers chooses not to fix).

You dont get to decide that lmao. Telling everyone this project doesnt care about security if they ignore my CVE is obviously a demand and your traditions can not change that

> abandoning the project entirely

that is a good outcome, because then the people dependent on such a project would find it plausible to pay a new set of maintainers.

"When you publicize... you are ... name-calling": you are taking partial quotes out of context, where I claimed that publicizing is effectively doing something else.

It's funny you come up with that suggestion when I clearly offer a different solution: "make your internal teams do the right thing by both reporting, but also helping fix the issue with hands-on work".

It's a call not to stop reporting, but to equally invest in fixing these.

If they both funded vulnerability scanning and vulnerability fixing (if they don't want to do it in-house, they can sponsor the upstream team), which is to me the obvious "how", I am not sure why you believe there is only one way to do it.

It's about accountability! Who really gets to do it once those who ship it to customers care, is on them to figure out (though note that maintainers will have some burden to review, integrate and maintain the change anyway).

I really don’t understand whole discourse us vs them? Why it is should be only Google fixing the bugs. Isn’t if volunteers not enough, so maybe more volunteers can step up and help FFMpeg. Via direct patches, or via directly lobbying companies to fund project.

In my opinion if the problem is money, and they cannot raise enough, then somebody should help them with that. Isn’t it?

In this world and the alternate universe both, attackers can also use _un_published vulnerabilities because they have high incentive to do research. Keeping a bug secret does not prevent it from existing or from being exploited.

Nation-states are a very relevant part of the threat model.

The codec is compiled in, enabled by default, and auto detected through file magic, so the fact that it is an obscure 1990s hobby codec does not in any way make the vulnerability less exploitable. At this point I think FFmpeg is being intentionally deceptive by constantly mentioning only the ancient obscure hobby status and not the fact that it’s on by default and autodetected. They have also rejected suggestions to turn obscure hobby codecs off by default, giving more priority to their goal of playing every media format ever than to security.

> They also have the option to not spend resources finding the bugs in the first place.

The Copenhagen interpretation of security bugs: if you don’t look for it, it doesn’t exist and is not a problem.

Publicizing vulnerabilities is the problem though. Google is ensuring obscure or unknown vulnerabilities will now be very well known and very public.

This is significant when they represent one of the few entities on the planet likely able to find bugs at that scale due to their wealth.

So funding a swarm of bug reports, for software they benefit from, using a scale of resources not commonly available, while not contributing fixes and instead demanding timelines for disclosure, seems a lot more like they'd just like to drive people out of open source.

Hands on work like filing a detailed bug report with suspected line numbers, reproduction code and likely causes? Look, I get it. It would be nice if Google had filed a patch with the bug. But also not every bug report is going to get a patch with it, nor should that be the sort of expectation we have. It's hard enough getting corporations to contribute time and resources to open source projects as it is, to set an expectation that the only acceptable corporate contribution to open source is full patches for any bug reports is just going to make it that much harder to get anything out of them.

In the end, Google does submit patches and code to ffmpeg, they also buy consulting from the ffmpeg maintainers. And here they did some security testing and filed a detailed and useful bug report. But because they didn't file a patch with the bug report, we're dragging them through the mud. And for what? When another corporation looks at what Google does do, and what the response this bug report has gotten them, which do you think is the most likely lesson learned?

1) "We should invest equally in reporting and patching bugs in our open source dependencies"

2) "We should shut the hell up and shouldn't tell anyone else about bugs and vulnerabilities we discover, because even if you regularly contribute patches and money to the project, that won't be good enough. Our name and reputation will get dragged for having the audacity to file a detailed bug report without also filing a patch."

They regularly submit code and they buy consulting from the ffmpeg maintainers according to the maintainer's own website. It seems to me like they're already funding fixes in ffmpeg, and really everyone is just mad that this particular issue didn't come with a fix. Which is honestly not a great look for convincing corporations to invest resources into contributing to upstream. If regular patches and buying dev time from the maintainers isn't enough to avoid getting grief for "not contributing" then why bother spending that time and money in the first place?

Sorry to put it this bluntly, but you are not going to get what you want unless you do it yourself or you can convince, pay, browbeat, or threaten somebody to provide it for you.

> so Google is actively spending money on making open source projects better and more secure

It looks like they are now starting to flood OSS with issues because "our AI tools are great", but don't want to spend a dime helping to fix those issues.

xkcd 2347

Why should Google not be expected to also contribute fixes to a core dependency of their browser, or to help funding the developers? Just publishing bug reports by themselves does not make open source projects secure!

They are different because the independent researchers don't make money off the projects that they investigate.

Google does do that.

This bit of ffmpeg is not a Chrome dependency, and likely isn’t used in internal Google tools either.

> Just publishing bug reports by themselves does not make open source projects secure!

It does, especially when you first privately report them to the maintainers and give them a plenty of time to fix the bug.

Chrome devs frequently do just that, Chrome just doesn’t enable this codec.

This particular bug would be easy to find without any fancy expensive tools.

> CVE-searching teams

Silly nitpick, but you search for vulnerabilities not CVEs. CVE is something that may or may not be assigned to track a vulnerability after it has been discovered.

Most security issues probably get patched without a CVE ever being issued.

OK, then you can't decode videos.

> But FFmpeg does not have the resources to fix these at the speed Google is finding them.

Google submitting a patch does not address this issue. The main work for maintainers here is making the decision whether or not they want to disable this codec, whether or not Google submits a patch to do that is completely immaterial.

If it was a rendering bug it would be a waste of time. But they also wouldn't have any pressure to fix it.

An exploit is different. It can affect anyone and is quite pertinent.

CVE!=vulnerability

These two terms are not interchangeable.

Most vulnerabilities never have CVEs issued.

Google makes money off ffmpeg in general but not this part of the code. They're not getting someone else to write a patch that helps them make money, because google will just disable this codec if it wasn't already disabled in their builds.

Also in general Google does investigate software they don't make money off.

> Telling everyone this project doesnt care about security

Google did nothing like this.

If people infer that a hypothetical project doesn't care about security because they didn't fix anything, then they're right. It's not google's fault they're factually bad at security. Making someone look bad is not always a bad action.

Drawing attention to that decision by publicly reporting a bug is not a demand for what the decision will be. I could imagine malicious attention-getting but a bug report isn't it.

If the FFmpeg team does not want people to file bug reports, then they should close their public issue tracker. This is not something that I decided but a choice that they made.

I think most people learned about this bug from FFmpeg's actions, not Google's. Also, you are underestimating adversaries: Google spends quite a bit of money on this, but not a lot given their revenue, because their primary purpose is not finding security bugs. There are entities that are smaller than Google but derive almost all their money from finding exploits. Their results are broadly comparable but they are only publicized when they mess up.

> independent researchers don't make money off the projects that they investigate

but they make money off the reputational increase they earn for having their name attached to the investigation. Unless the investigation and report is anonymous and their name not attached (which, could be true for some researchers), i can say that they're not doing charity.

I can't force them. Doesn't mean I can't criticize them for not doing it.

It doesn't if you report lots of "security" issues (like this 25 years old bug) and give too little time to fix them.

Nobody is against Google reporting bugs, but they use automatic AI to spam them and then expect a prompt fix. If you can't expect the maintainers to fix the bug before disclosure, then it is a balancing act: Is the bug serious enough that users must be warned and avoid using the software? Will disclosing the bug now allow attackers to exploit it because no fix has been made?

In this case, this bug (imo) is not serious enough to warrant a short disclosure time, especially if you consider *other* security notices that may have a bigger impact. The chances of an attacker finding this on their own and exploiting it are low, but now everybody is aware and you have to rush to update.

The timeline here is pretty long, and Google will provide an extension if you ask.

What do you believe would be an appropriate timeline?

>especially if you consider other security notices that may have a bigger impact.

This is a bug in the default config that is likely to result in RCE, it doesn’t get that much worse than this.

We'll see. Video codec experts won't materialize out of thin air just because there's money.

And if they choose 2), would they stop to consider what happens if everybody does that? What's their fallback plan once maintainers dump the project?

All I am saying is that you should be as mindful to open source maintainers as you are to the people at companies.

> would they stop to consider what happens if everybody does that?

It’s almost almost like bitching about the “free labor” open source projects are getting from their users, especially when that labor is of good quality and comes from a user that is actively contributing both code and money to the project is a losing strategy for open source fans and maintainers.

> All I am saying is that you should be as mindful to open source maintainers as you are to the people at companies.

And all I’m saying is there is nothing that’s “un-mindful” about reporting real bugs to an open source project, whether that report is public or not. And especially when that report is well crafted and actionable. If this report were for something that wasn’t a bug, is this report was a low quality “foo is broke, plz to fix” report with no actionable information, or if the report actually came with demands for responses and commitment timelines, then it would be a different matter. But ffmpeg runs a public bug tracker. To say then that making public bug reports is somehow disrespectful of the maintainers is ridiculous.

> On the other hand as an ffmpeg user do you care? Are you okay not being told a tool you're using has a vulnerability in it because the devs don't have time to fix it?

Yes, because publicly disclosing the vulnerability means someone will have enough information to exploit it. Without public disclosure, the chance of that is much lower.

That's a one-time bonus they get for discovering a bug, not from using the project on production. Google also gets this reward by the way. Therefore it's still imbalanced.

> Also in general Google does investigate software they don't make money off.

An organization of this size might actually have trouble making sure they really don't use code from that project. Or won't do so in the future.

You disclose so that users can decide what mitigations to take. If there's a way to mitigate the issue without a fix from the developers the users deserve to know. Whether the developers have any obligation to fix the problem is up to the license of the software, the 90 day concession is to allow those developers who are obligated or just want to issue fixes to do so before details are released.

The other alternative if the ffmpeg developers change the text on their "about" screen from "Security is a high priority and code review is always done with security in mind. Though due to the very large amounts of code touching untrusted data security issues are unavoidable and thus we provide as quick as possible updates to our last stable releases when new security issues are found." to something like "Security is a best-effort priority. Code review is always done with security in mind. Due to the very large amounts of code touching untrusted data security issues are unavoidable. We attempt to provide updates to our last stable releases when new security issues are found, but make no guarantees as to how long this may take. Priority will be given to reports including a proof-of-concept exploit and a patch that fixes the security bug."

Then point to the "PoC + Patch or GTFO" sign when reports come in. If you use a library with a "NO WARRANTY" license clause in an application where you're responsible for failures, it's on you to fix or mitigate the issues, not on the library authors.

Pretty much anything that has any video uses the library (incl. youtube)

That license also doesn't give the ffmpeg devs the right to dictate which bugs you're allowed to find, disclose privately, or disclose publicly. The software is provided as-is, without warranty, and I can do what I want with it, including reporting bugs. The ffmpeg devs can simply not read the bug reports, if they hate bug reports so much.

Bullshit. That is exactly what google is doing. Demands aren’t necessarily malicious, but they’re certainly annoying for the person being demanded.

If merely publishing a bug they found, and doing nothing else, would qualify by your definition as "telling everyone this project doesn't care about security", then there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that "telling".

According to the ffmpeg maintainer's own website (fflabs.eu) Google is spending plenty of dimes helping to fix issues in ffmpeg. Certainly they're spending enough dimes for the maintainers to proudly display Google's logo on their site as a customer of theirs.