Most active commenters
  • Certhas(4)
  • wqaatwt(4)
  • exe34(3)

←back to thread

194 points sleirsgoevy | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
Show context
asimops ◴[] No.45776925[source]
While it is technically feasible, it is not a good idea to try and find a technical solution to a people/organisation problem.

Do not accept the premise of assholes.

I hope we can get the EU to fund a truly open Android Fork. Maybe under some organisation similar to NL Labs.

--- edit ---

Furthermore, the need for a trustworthy binary to be auditable to a certain hash or something would make banning this a simple task if Google would want to go that route.

replies(8): >>45777355 #>>45778228 #>>45778511 #>>45779765 #>>45779867 #>>45780458 #>>45780743 #>>45781937 #
closeparen ◴[] No.45778511[source]
The same EU that's doing Chat Control?
replies(5): >>45778682 #>>45779494 #>>45779799 #>>45780908 #>>45781445 #
exe34 ◴[] No.45779799[source]
The EU is a big place, run by a lot of different people, with true separation of powers. They don't have a president-king who can just ignore court decisions.
replies(1): >>45780320 #
1. jmnicolas ◴[] No.45780320[source]
So we're gonna get access to Von Der Layen Pfizer sms right?

Were you offered to vote for Von Der Layen by the way?

replies(4): >>45780465 #>>45780532 #>>45780788 #>>45780993 #
2. StopDisinfo910 ◴[] No.45780465[source]
For all the disdain I have for her, Von Der Layen is the candidate put forward by the PPE, the majoritarian party in the EU parliament. So, yes, people were indeed allowed to vote.
replies(1): >>45781152 #
3. Certhas ◴[] No.45780532[source]
The EU is a parliamentary democracy. Von Der Leyen was proposed by the democratically elected heads of the member states. She was approved by the democratically elected parliament.

The chancellor in Germany is also not directly elected by majority vote but by parliament.

Its a reasonable criticism that the EU structures make democratic legitimisation very indirect, but that is at least partly a result of the EU being a club of sovereign democracies. The central tension was extremely evident during the Greek debt crisis, you have a change in government in Greece, but due to EU level constraints they can't enact a change in policy. More independent power ininstitutions less dependent on the member state, means the sovereign democratic national governments can't act on their local democratic mandates.

replies(2): >>45780750 #>>45781120 #
4. immibis ◴[] No.45780750[source]
FWIW EU members are sovereign. If they disobey EU laws they can have benefits withheld but they won't be militarily invaded for ignoring EU law the way a US state would (unless they do something military themselves like invading another country).
5. exe34 ◴[] No.45780788[source]
I'm not in the EU! I can explain when somebody is wrong without having a horse in the race myself.
6. victorbjorklund ◴[] No.45780993[source]
technically people didn’t vote for Trump they voted for electors which voted for him.
7. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781120[source]
> The EU is a parliamentary democracy

Except the are a couple degrees of separation between the democracy part and in the running the EU institutions.

The EU parliament is also a very superficial imitation of a real parliament in a democratic state. It has very limited say in forming the “government” or decision making.

> result of the EU being a club of sovereign democracies

So either revert to it just being a trade union or implement fully democratic federal institutions. The in between isn’t really working that well.

replies(2): >>45781208 #>>45784065 #
8. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781152[source]
She was primarily nominated by the EU council.

The parliament would have picked Weber, but nobody cared since its just there to rubber stamp predetermined decisions.

He was the leader of the party which won the plurality in the elections and had its support. EU had a real chance to move towards becoming a real parliamentary democracy if it went that way.

replies(1): >>45783099 #
9. saubeidl ◴[] No.45781208{3}[source]
> Except the are a couple degrees of separation between the democracy part and in the running the EU institutions.

That's what parliamentary democracy means, yes.

replies(1): >>45781242 #
10. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781242{4}[source]
No, of course not...

In parliamentary democracies the parliament is elected directly and is generally sovereign (optionally constrained by a constitution or some set of basic laws and powers delegated to regional governments and such).

In no way does that describe the EU. It has no equivalent body. Its imitation “parliament” is extremely weak and barely has a say in who forms the closest EU has to a “government”.

replies(2): >>45781534 #>>45784032 #
11. saubeidl ◴[] No.45781534{5}[source]
But the parliament isn't the government in a parliamentary democracy.
replies(1): >>45782216 #
12. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45782216{6}[source]
Yes, and? It forms the government and can dismiss it.
replies(2): >>45783220 #>>45784008 #
13. StopDisinfo910 ◴[] No.45783099{3}[source]
That was the election before the current one. She was the one out forward by the PPE this time and even then she was the second candidate put forward by the PPE after Weber was vetoed by France the previous time.

That’s the new Spitzenkandidate system. The council is supposed to pick the candidate put forward by the main political force in the parliament.

The EU is a real democracy anyway. All the members of the council are themselves democratically elected. It has a weird three parts political system but everyone in it is elected or appointed by people elected.

14. exe34 ◴[] No.45783220{7}[source]
They can also vote on bills, while we're bringing up irrelevant gotchas.
15. Certhas ◴[] No.45784008{7}[source]
So this is typical of criticism of the EU democratic structure: It's just factually wrong. The EU Parliament can dismiss the commission. From Wikipedia:

"The Parliament also has the power to censure the Commission by a two-thirds majority which will force the resignation of the entire Commission from office. As with approval, this power has never been explicitly used, but when faced with such a vote, the Santer Commission then resigned of their own accord."

The fact that the whole democratic setup is highly complex is in itself a problem. But the concrete deficits people mention are never true or don't apply to other democracies either...

In practice the EU Parliament has been a lot more trouble for the executive than is typical in national bodies. The one valid point is that the parliament does not have the right to initiate legislation itself. That is unusual, but in practice many people who are actually close to political processes seem to say this is mostly symbolic, as national bodies can't really draft effective legislation without cooperation from the executive either... Stil definitely something I would love to see addressed.

16. Certhas ◴[] No.45784032{5}[source]
The parliament approves and dismisses the commission.

In the last cycles the candidate who led the party who won the parliamentary elections became head of commission.

So this is just wrong. The EU parliament has more power than US Congress or the UK parliament in this respect.

17. Certhas ◴[] No.45784065{3}[source]
It isn't working well by what standard?