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194 points sleirsgoevy | 33 comments | | HN request time: 2.63s | source | bottom
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asimops ◴[] No.45776925[source]
While it is technically feasible, it is not a good idea to try and find a technical solution to a people/organisation problem.

Do not accept the premise of assholes.

I hope we can get the EU to fund a truly open Android Fork. Maybe under some organisation similar to NL Labs.

--- edit ---

Furthermore, the need for a trustworthy binary to be auditable to a certain hash or something would make banning this a simple task if Google would want to go that route.

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1. closeparen ◴[] No.45778511[source]
The same EU that's doing Chat Control?
replies(5): >>45778682 #>>45779494 #>>45779799 #>>45780908 #>>45781445 #
2. rf15 ◴[] No.45778682[source]
The same EU of which parts are trying to make chat control work and are once again abandoning it. Politician get this particular fancy idea every other year in all kinds of countries, not just EU. Overreach out of desperation for a problem that cannot simply be solved is wrong but understandable.
replies(1): >>45780562 #
3. deaux ◴[] No.45779494[source]
The same EU that's doing NL Labs, the org mentioned in the comment you're replying to.
4. exe34 ◴[] No.45779799[source]
The EU is a big place, run by a lot of different people, with true separation of powers. They don't have a president-king who can just ignore court decisions.
replies(1): >>45780320 #
5. jmnicolas ◴[] No.45780320[source]
So we're gonna get access to Von Der Layen Pfizer sms right?

Were you offered to vote for Von Der Layen by the way?

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6. StopDisinfo910 ◴[] No.45780465{3}[source]
For all the disdain I have for her, Von Der Layen is the candidate put forward by the PPE, the majoritarian party in the EU parliament. So, yes, people were indeed allowed to vote.
replies(1): >>45781152 #
7. Certhas ◴[] No.45780532{3}[source]
The EU is a parliamentary democracy. Von Der Leyen was proposed by the democratically elected heads of the member states. She was approved by the democratically elected parliament.

The chancellor in Germany is also not directly elected by majority vote but by parliament.

Its a reasonable criticism that the EU structures make democratic legitimisation very indirect, but that is at least partly a result of the EU being a club of sovereign democracies. The central tension was extremely evident during the Greek debt crisis, you have a change in government in Greece, but due to EU level constraints they can't enact a change in policy. More independent power ininstitutions less dependent on the member state, means the sovereign democratic national governments can't act on their local democratic mandates.

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8. igor_akhmetov ◴[] No.45780562[source]
Desperation for what exactly? More control?
replies(1): >>45781215 #
9. immibis ◴[] No.45780750{4}[source]
FWIW EU members are sovereign. If they disobey EU laws they can have benefits withheld but they won't be militarily invaded for ignoring EU law the way a US state would (unless they do something military themselves like invading another country).
10. exe34 ◴[] No.45780788{3}[source]
I'm not in the EU! I can explain when somebody is wrong without having a horse in the race myself.
11. saubeidl ◴[] No.45780908[source]
The same EU that shut down another attempt at Chat Control.

Bad legislation gets written everywhere, the difference is, in the EU it doesn't pass.

12. victorbjorklund ◴[] No.45780993{3}[source]
technically people didn’t vote for Trump they voted for electors which voted for him.
13. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781120{4}[source]
> The EU is a parliamentary democracy

Except the are a couple degrees of separation between the democracy part and in the running the EU institutions.

The EU parliament is also a very superficial imitation of a real parliament in a democratic state. It has very limited say in forming the “government” or decision making.

> result of the EU being a club of sovereign democracies

So either revert to it just being a trade union or implement fully democratic federal institutions. The in between isn’t really working that well.

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14. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781152{4}[source]
She was primarily nominated by the EU council.

The parliament would have picked Weber, but nobody cared since its just there to rubber stamp predetermined decisions.

He was the leader of the party which won the plurality in the elections and had its support. EU had a real chance to move towards becoming a real parliamentary democracy if it went that way.

replies(1): >>45783099 #
15. saubeidl ◴[] No.45781208{5}[source]
> Except the are a couple degrees of separation between the democracy part and in the running the EU institutions.

That's what parliamentary democracy means, yes.

replies(1): >>45781242 #
16. ForHackernews ◴[] No.45781215{3}[source]
They are trying to stop crime, including sex/drug trafficking and child exploitation. If you want to have an intellectually honest debate, you need to be clear that private communication apps do make it more difficult for police to conduct legitimate investigations. You do yourself no favours painting all politicians as power-hungry caricatures.
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17. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45781242{6}[source]
No, of course not...

In parliamentary democracies the parliament is elected directly and is generally sovereign (optionally constrained by a constitution or some set of basic laws and powers delegated to regional governments and such).

In no way does that describe the EU. It has no equivalent body. Its imitation “parliament” is extremely weak and barely has a say in who forms the closest EU has to a “government”.

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18. supermatt ◴[] No.45781445[source]
It appears that you are an American who has conveniently forgotten about FISA, EARN IT, CLOUD act, PATRIOT act, LAED, etc, etc, and wants to take a dig at the EU for what, exactly? NOT passing Chat Control? Seriously..
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19. ipaddr ◴[] No.45781496{4}[source]
So do private in person conversations. Going the route of North Korea putting two way speakers in each house would help make those conversations available to the government. Think of all of the child exploitation you could stop by removing any sense of privacy. Of course they would figure a way around this and everyday citizens would have to deal with the lack of privacy but at least they thought of the children so we should keep voting them in.
20. saubeidl ◴[] No.45781534{7}[source]
But the parliament isn't the government in a parliamentary democracy.
replies(1): >>45782216 #
21. wqaatwt ◴[] No.45782216{8}[source]
Yes, and? It forms the government and can dismiss it.
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22. 0xDEAFBEAD ◴[] No.45782734{4}[source]
If chat control is a good-faith effort to stop crime, why can't Android developer verification be a good-faith effort to stop cybercrime?

If politicians are not all power-hungry caricatures, is it possible that the same is true for businesses?

Android has millions of users worldwide, many of whom are far less computer-literate than HN users. I think it's very reasonable for Google to put speed bumps in front of malware developers trying to distribute through the Play Store. If you're a half-decent dev, $25 is nothing compared to the opportunity cost of your time in developing your app.

This whole thing seems to be a fairly recent announcement on Google's part, so it's unsurprising they're still hammering out details for hobbyist devs? How about making constructive suggestions for ways that Google can protect ordinary people without stopping power users?

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23. ◴[] No.45782748[source]
24. 0xDEAFBEAD ◴[] No.45782787[source]
It's interesting how so many online discussions of internet privacy devolve into nationalist chest-beating. I'm beginning to suspect that people don't inherently value privacy all that much -- they just want to brag about how their country is the most private.

Recall that the premise of this thread is that the EU should sponsor an alternative to Android. The EU vs US question isn't really topical, since no one suggested that the US government should sponsor an alternative to Android instead.

25. closeparen ◴[] No.45782902[source]
I do not think it is righteous or enlightened when the American government flexes control over the tech sector. I can see how Europeans might have thought this about the EU when it was just GDPR, but subsequent developments have recast all of this as being about government control and keeping the tech industry “in its place” rather than a commitment to privacy and freedom in and of themselves. I think that ought to temper the righteousness.
replies(1): >>45788650 #
26. StopDisinfo910 ◴[] No.45783099{5}[source]
That was the election before the current one. She was the one out forward by the PPE this time and even then she was the second candidate put forward by the PPE after Weber was vetoed by France the previous time.

That’s the new Spitzenkandidate system. The council is supposed to pick the candidate put forward by the main political force in the parliament.

The EU is a real democracy anyway. All the members of the council are themselves democratically elected. It has a weird three parts political system but everyone in it is elected or appointed by people elected.

27. exe34 ◴[] No.45783220{9}[source]
They can also vote on bills, while we're bringing up irrelevant gotchas.
28. ForHackernews ◴[] No.45783469{5}[source]
I think the issue is not about distribution in the Play Store (I don't actually have any problem with that: their playground, their rules) but the fact that they are going to break sideloading and alternative app sources like F-Droid.

I struggle to see any good-faith need to erect additional barriers to protect users from running the programs they want on devices they own, when you already have to be fairly expert to enable developer mode, install via adb, etc.

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29. Certhas ◴[] No.45784008{9}[source]
So this is typical of criticism of the EU democratic structure: It's just factually wrong. The EU Parliament can dismiss the commission. From Wikipedia:

"The Parliament also has the power to censure the Commission by a two-thirds majority which will force the resignation of the entire Commission from office. As with approval, this power has never been explicitly used, but when faced with such a vote, the Santer Commission then resigned of their own accord."

The fact that the whole democratic setup is highly complex is in itself a problem. But the concrete deficits people mention are never true or don't apply to other democracies either...

In practice the EU Parliament has been a lot more trouble for the executive than is typical in national bodies. The one valid point is that the parliament does not have the right to initiate legislation itself. That is unusual, but in practice many people who are actually close to political processes seem to say this is mostly symbolic, as national bodies can't really draft effective legislation without cooperation from the executive either... Stil definitely something I would love to see addressed.

30. Certhas ◴[] No.45784032{7}[source]
The parliament approves and dismisses the commission.

In the last cycles the candidate who led the party who won the parliamentary elections became head of commission.

So this is just wrong. The EU parliament has more power than US Congress or the UK parliament in this respect.

31. Certhas ◴[] No.45784065{5}[source]
It isn't working well by what standard?
32. 0xDEAFBEAD ◴[] No.45787331{6}[source]
That's fair.
33. supermatt ◴[] No.45788650{3}[source]
What subsequent developments? It sounds like you are alluding to the DMA.

The DMA is an attempt to reclassify what “market” means in the modern age where we have a global tech oligopoly. This is because a simple “test” for monopolism doesn’t work in this world of multinational megacorps.

Again, your complaint is a double standard. You are doing similar in the USA - albeit without an actual structured act - as per the recent rulings on the Google Play store.

The EU has simply codified the rules for their vision of the future where people aren’t beholden to a handful of tech overlords, whereas the USA is making similar incremental “changes” through case-law. I’m not saying either way is correct, but it seems like they are both headed in the same direction.