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498 points azhenley | 9 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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anymouse123456 ◴[] No.45771965[source]
I completely agree with the assertion and the benefits that ensue, but my attention is always snagged by the nomenclature.

I know there are alternate names available to us, but even in the context of this very conversation (and headline), the thing is being called a "variable."

What is a "variable" if not something that varies?

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tialaramex ◴[] No.45772062[source]
In the cases we're interested in here the variable does vary, what it doesn't do is mutate.

Suppose I have a function which sums up all the prices of products in a cart, the total so far will frequently mutate, that's fine. In Rust we need to mark this variable "mut" because it will be mutated as each product's price is added.

After calculating this total, we also add $10 shipping charge. That's a constant, we're (for this piece of code) always saying $10. That's not a variable it's a constant. In Rust we'd use `const` for this but in C you need to use the C pre-processor language instead to make constants, which is kinda wild.

However for each time this function runs we do also need to get the customer ID. The customer ID will vary each time this function runs, as different customers check out their purchases, but it does not mutate during function execution like that total earlier, in Rust these variables don't need an annotation, this is the default. In C you'd ideally want to label these "const" which is the confusing name C gives to immutable variables.

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1. ajross ◴[] No.45772342[source]
> In the cases we're interested in here the variable does vary, what it doesn't do is mutate.

Those are synonyms, and this amounts to a retcon. The computer science term "variable" comes directly from standard mathematical function notation, where a variable reflects a quantity being related by the function to other variables. It absolutely is expected to "change", if not across "time" than across the domain of the function being expressed. Computers are discrete devices and a variable that "varies" across its domain inherently implies that it's going to be computed more than once. The sense Carmack is using, where it is not recomputed and just amounts to a shorthand for a longer expression, is a poor fit.

I do think this is sort of a wart in terminology, and the upthread post is basically right that we've been using this wrong for years.

If I ever decide to inflict a static language on the masses, the declaration keywords will be "def" (to define a constant expression) and "var" (to define a mutable/variable quantity). Maybe there's value in distinguishing a "var" declaration from a "mut" reference and so maybe those should have separate syntaxes.

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2. IshKebab ◴[] No.45772976[source]
Well maybe global constants shouldn't be called "variables", but I don't see how your definition excludes local immutable variables from being called "variables". E.g.

  fn sin(x: f64) -> f64 {
    let x2 = x / PI;
    ...
Is x2 not variable? It's value varies depending on how I assign x.

Anyway this is kind of pointless arguing. We use the word "variable". It's fine.

3. zahlman ◴[] No.45773131[source]
> Those are synonyms, and this amounts to a retcon.

The point is that it varies between calls to a function, rather than within a call. Consider, for example, a name for a value which is a pure function (in the mathematical sense) of the function's (in the CS sense) inputs.

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4. ajross ◴[] No.45773228[source]
Or between iterations of the loop scope in which it's defined, const/immutable definitions absolutely change during the execution of a function. I understand the nitpicky argument, I just think it's kinda dumb. It's a transparent attempt to justify jargon that we all know is needlessly confusing.
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5. tialaramex ◴[] No.45773456{3}[source]
Ah! Actually this idea that the immutable variables in a loop "change during execution" is a serious misunderstanding and some languages have tripped themselves up and had to fix it later when they baked this mistake into the language.

What's happening is that each iteration of the loop these are new variables but they have the same name, they're not the same variables with a different value. When a language designer assumes that's the same thing the result is confusing for programmers and so it usually ends up requiring a language level fix.

e.g. "In C# 5, the loop variable of a foreach will be logically inside the loop"

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6. ajross ◴[] No.45773872{4}[source]
Seems like you're coming around to my side of the fence that calling these clearly distinct constant expressions "variables" is probably a mistake?
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7. tialaramex ◴[] No.45774125{5}[source]
I don't think so? I've been clear that there are three distinct kinds of thing here - constants, immutable variables, and mutable variables.

In C the first needs us to step outside the language to the macro pre-processor, the second needs the keyword "const" and the third is the default

In Rust the first is a const, the second we can make with let and the third we need let mut, as Carmack says immutable should be the default.

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8. ajross ◴[] No.45774658{6}[source]
There are surely more than three! References can support mutation or not, "constants" may be runtime or compile time.

The point is that the word "variable" inherently reflects change. And choosing it (a-la your malapropism-that-we-all-agree-not-to-notice "immutable variables") to mean something that does (1) is confusing and (2) tends to force us into worse choices[1][2] elsewhere.

A "variable" should reflect the idea of something that can be assigned.

[1] In rust, the idea of something that can change looks like a misspelled dog, and is pronounced so as to imply that it can't speak!

[2] In C++, they threw English out the window and talk about "lvalues" for this idea.

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9. kelipso ◴[] No.45782658{7}[source]
The term variable is from math is 100s (probably) of years old. Variables in pure functional languages are used exactly the same way it’s used in math. The idea of mutating and non-mutating variable is pretty old too and used in math as well. Neither are going to change.