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brandonb ◴[] No.44604783[source]
The ACA was originally designed as a "three-legged stool" of nondiscrimination (insurance companies can't charge higher rates to sick people), the individual mandate, and subsidies.

If you remove one of legs of the stool, the market becomes unstable and you see price spirals like this.

Jonathan Gruber (MIT econ professor, and one of the designers of the Affordable Care Act) gave a fairly detailed talk about how and why they designed the ACA the way they did, learning from a similar law in Massachusetts: https://youtu.be/2fTHqARiV_Q?si=SRC6Np-rjgUgAe4Z&t=679

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mystraline ◴[] No.44604881[source]
Yep, the ACA was originally RomneyCare.

Mitt Romney took the plan from the Heritage foundation (yes, the conservative neocon think tank). Hard low-controls capitalist plan.

Heritage foundation made this plan after Hillary Clinton pushed universal healthcare in 1994, as first lady. Howls of 'death panels' were heard all over republican talking points and radio shows.

(The 'death panels' aka rationing was seen as bad for government to do. However, we see a new type of rationing, based upon how much patients cost, and then denying care. That lead to the UHC execution, then approving more procedures, then getting sued by shareholders for that. Personally, government death panels are preferred to capitalist death panels.)

Put simply: Obama passed republican legislation put forth by a republican governor and a republican thinktank, and was deemed a socialist. And now, the program is basically destroyed.

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toomuchtodo ◴[] No.44604907[source]
Bipartisanship is dead. If you want to win, play to win.
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brookst ◴[] No.44604998[source]
Playing to win is dead. Current climate is play to kill yourself, so long as your opponent also does but suffers more.
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toomuchtodo ◴[] No.44605081{3}[source]
I'm somewhat hopeful with Gavin Newsom's posture making an example, I wouldn't vote for him, but I like the aggressive PR position he's taken, his willingness to gerrymander just as the other side has been doing forever. That's what I mean by bipartisanship is dead. You can't negotiate with the other side, they do not want to negotiate, they want to win at all costs for ideology, so you can only do your best to disempower them. If you try to play fair with a counterparty who does not believe in acting in good faith or playing fair, you have default lost. You can't have a functional democracy when one side rejects democracy (massive efforts to disenfranchise voters, gerrymandering, etc) because they can't win democratically. There is no reason you can't have empathy while punching down at bullies, because if the tables were turned, the bullies would put their boot on your neck ("paradox of tolerance"). So, start punching down.

Edit:

In the context of this topic and the near term, this looks like blue states implementing universal healthcare, and letting red states figure it out themselves (considering how dependent red states are on the federal government [1] [2]); Oregon is up first [3]. You can increase state taxes to fund this, reducing tax dollars sent to the federal government, if properly engineered.

[1]. https://time.com/7222411/blue-states-are-bailing-out-red-sta...

[2] https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-contribute-the-mo...

[3] https://www.hcfawa.org/oregon_s_path_to_universal_health_car...

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ceejayoz ◴[] No.44605519{4}[source]
> In the context of this topic and the near term, this looks like blue states implementing universal healthcare, and letting red states figure it out themselves…

The risk here will be sick people (and their high costs) moving. As with how Chicago's illegal gun problems mostly come from Indiana.

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1. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.44605909{5}[source]
We already deal with this problem in higher education by having out-of-state tuition and in-state tuition priced at different levels. A period of residency is required to access in-state tuition.

Does residency fraud exist? I'm sure of it. Despite the UC and CSU systems not publishing residency fraud statistics, such fraud is universally described as being extremely difficult to execute. I cannot overstate this point. Students routinely depict residency fraud as being more difficult to do than simply paying out of state tuition. The high cost of committing residency fraud makes cancels out any expected payoff. Furthermore, most instances of detected fraud appear to be technical and clerical errors, not intentional deception.

What are in-state residency requirements, and how difficult is the requirement? Evidence for residency includes:

- Obtaining a California driver’s license or ID card

- California vehicle registration

- California voter registration

- California state tax returns

- California bank accounts

- Employment in California

- Lease, mortgage, or property ownership in California

- Severing residential ties to your former state (e.g., closing out-of-state bank accounts, surrendering non-CA licenses)

Additionally, one year and one day of residency is commonly the required threshold to qualify for in-state tuition.

The question becomes, is this effective enough at reducing fraud rather than can fraud be eliminated. I'm sure, like with any system, fraud detection and remediation are part of the operating costs and measured in terms of recovery rate/rate of return - the KPI we're discussing.

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2. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44606005[source]
I'm not talking about fraud, though. I'm talking about genuinely moving.
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3. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.44606183[source]
It is fraud to move to California for the sole purpose of education[1]. Likewise, genuinely moving to California for the sole purpose of benefiting from universal healthcare is also, in my opinion, fraud.

People genuinely moving to California would presumably pay out of state healthcare fees until their residency was established. Don't you agree that these fees could be set in a way that served as a barrier to doing what you suggest?

Is there a case that isn't covered by this that you're thinking about?

1. Cal. Code Regs. Tit. 5, § 54022 - Physical Presence. "Physical presence within the state solely for educational purposes does not constitute establishing California residence regardless of the length of that presence." https://www.law.cornell.edu/regulations/california/5-CCR-540...

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4. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44606252{3}[source]
That just means college students living off-campus don't suddenly get in-state tuition rates after a year or two.

Sick people are allowed to like California's weather enough to move there. The ADA would also apply when trying to restrict residency in a way it would not for education.

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5. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.44606321{4}[source]
> Sick people are allowed to like California's weather enough to move there.

Perfectly fine. They shall pay out of state rates until they meet the threshold.

> The ADA would also apply when trying to restrict residency in a way it would not for education.

Can you elaborate? In the best case, it's difficult to predict how courts would rule on this. Any relevant case law? Legislation?

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6. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44606340{5}[source]
> They shall pay out of state rates until they meet the threshold.

I'm not arguing they'll move and obtain residency on day one. I'm arguing it may still make sense to move, pay out of pocket for the 366 days, and gain residency for some folks.

The ADA's Title II would seem to forbid "you can't be a resident, ever, if you've got expensive healthcare costs" sort of rules at the state level, yes? That would clearly not be equal treatment for people with medical disabilities.

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7. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.44606455{6}[source]
> I'm arguing it may still make sense to move, pay out of pocket for the 366 days, and gain residency for some folks.

It's trivial to construct a threshold and out of state pay structure which cancels this case out. What number of days and out of state pay structure do you feel would cover these cases? How many of these cases do you suspect will occur annually and what is the projected cost? It's a relatively easy problem to solve once we get down to the specifics.

> "you can't be a resident, ever, if you've got expensive healthcare costs"

Great! I'm not arguing for "ever". I think we're in the clear here.

Edit: Let's estimate the volume of this effect using migration after Medicad expansion as a proxy. Over 10 years (2009 to 2019) we find 56,659 interstate moves after Medicaid enrollment growth[1]. In other words, 0.23 percentage points greater annual population growth in the target population. Another study found an in-migration rate(to CA) of 1.4% for medicaid recipients. Being generous and taking the higher of the two, and multiplying it by California's net immigration of 500,000–600,000 annually, gives us an estimated 7000-8400 medicaid migrants a year a fraction of which are migrating primarily for medical purposes. What would you estimate the annual medical expenditures for this group would be and if an "new arrivals" insurance pool was formed, what would the marginal monthly premium cost be to its members?

I estimate that a CA new arrivals insurance pool would have $4B in annual disbursements, and $4-20M in annual residency fraud. Using averages, we can estimate a monthly premium for this group would be about $667/month.

This is roughly on par with unsubsidized ACA premiums for adults in many states. For comparison, ACA benchmark premiums for a 40-year-old in California in 2024 are about $450–$600/month.

1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39893838/

2. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4011649/?

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8. dgfitz ◴[] No.44608260{7}[source]
I think there is a lot of time to flesh this idea out, California apparently has more people moving out than moving in at the moment.
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9. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.44608413{8}[source]
Absolutely. While it was unsurprising to find that housing costs are now one of the biggest reasons for CA emigration. It's those who are lower income, and have just a high school education. Among high earners, working from home has a huge influence on emigration from California. Conversely, higher earners are least likely to move out of CA.