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330 points beeburrt | 16 comments | | HN request time: 1.478s | source | bottom
1. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.44002511[source]
Don't you pay more in transaction costs than the cost of a coffee? And then pay in environmental costs.
replies(2): >>44002555 #>>44002996 #
2. olalonde ◴[] No.44002555[source]
No, on-chain transaction fees aren't higher than the cost of a coffee. They're currently around $0.15 per transaction - cheaper than typical credit card processing fees. Plus, you could always build an off-chain transaction system with zero fees.

As for the environmental impact: individual Bitcoin transactions don’t directly increase energy usage. Miners consume electricity regardless of whether any given person transacts. And while mining is energy intensive, it doesn't have an environmental impact in itself.

replies(1): >>44002610 #
3. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.44002610{3}[source]
I must have misremembered? Last time I looked (maybe 2 years ago) I thought actual bitcoin transactions took maybe an hour to confirm and cost a couple of dollars -- am I just short more marbles than I thought I was or has something changed with how they do transactions.

The context I was looking at related to storing data in the bitcoin ledger. I think I commented here, I'll have to look back and see.

replies(2): >>44002695 #>>44002758 #
4. dax_ ◴[] No.44002643[source]
Ah yes, that'll solve all problems (https://www.web3isgoinggreat.com/).

Cynicism aside, I'd rather not receive compensation in a currency that's mainly used for speculation. And to exchange it back into a "meaningful" currency somewhat securely requires me to go through an exchange, which is usually again a company that can make up their own policies? Seems to me this is just making it more complicated and more resource intensive.

replies(2): >>44002756 #>>44002913 #
5. olalonde ◴[] No.44002695{4}[source]
It's a dynamic market so fees can vary depending on congestion, BTC price, etc. Expected time to first block confirmation is around 10 minutes assuming your fee is high enough to be included in the next block (when blocks are full, miners prioritize transactions with higher fee).

When you send a transaction, you get to pick what fee you'd like to use. For this kind of service, transaction speed isn't really important so you can get away with setting a low fee.

Here's a 0.15$ fee transaction that was mined just 6 minutes ago: https://mempool.space/tx/2e66ba1758e233ff1b2395c7db55f8327de...

By "off-chain", I meant something like BuyMeACoffee letting users top up a wallet via an on-chain deposit, and then handling tips internally (e.g., in a SQL database). That way, small payments don't each require a blockchain transaction.

replies(1): >>44002890 #
6. olalonde ◴[] No.44002756[source]
You don't necessarily need to go through an exchange. You can also do a P2P trade, use a crypto ATM or even spend it. But I understand it can be complicated and scary if you're not used to it.
7. Shatnerz ◴[] No.44002758{4}[source]
Bitcoin may not be the best example because it does have a lot of limitation and somewhat failed as a currency and instead turned into a speculative store of value. Block time on Bitcoin is ~10 min. For small purchases, you would probably be fine with 1 confirmation, but a 10 minute wait is terrible UX. There is lighting which is a layer on top of bitcoin which is much faster, but the UX is still a bit clunky.

But in general, I agree that cryptocurrencies could help the problem, but it still carries the compliance and AML risks unless you can outsource that to a 3rd party. What happens if you accept funds from an OFAC or other sanctioned account? Violating AML can come with huge fines and is generally just a massive headache. Cash doesn't have these issues as the evidence is generally impossible to track well. With nearly all cryptocurrencies, the entire ledger is open, so if you accidentally accepted payment from the wrong person, you could get royally screwed at some later time.

8. once_inc ◴[] No.44002890{5}[source]
Expected time to first block confirmation is always 10 minutes. If the last block was found 10 minutes ago, then the expected time to the next block is still 10 minutes. It is always 10 minutes until it is actually found, at which point it is still 10 minutes.

The only thing that can change value is if the global hash rate significantly changes. This is why we have the difficulty readjustment every 2016 blocks (give or take 2 weeks).

replies(2): >>44002997 #>>44003029 #
9. once_inc ◴[] No.44002913[source]
Another alternative to using an exchange is to actually spend the bitcoin on a good or service. There's quite a few places where you can use Bitcoin to buy things, like web hosting, socks, coffee, and more.
10. once_inc ◴[] No.44002996[source]
Bitcoin mining is currently at 52% renewable. This is a very significant number, since most other industries aren't nearly that renewable. Are you going to go for a plastic or paper car because steel foundries aren't producing steel on renewable power?

The key is emissions, not energy use. If I have a process that benefits mankind (a global, decentralized, permissionless hard money that doesn't suffer from politics or unelected officials) and I am using 100% renewable energy, then there is no environmental cost.

Bitcoin mining is very cutt-throat. It is a bleeding-edge, hyper-competitive business of reducing margins. Because I only needs an energy connection, some HVAC and internet connectivity, miners are very mobile and can move from place to place after setting up shop somewhere. This means that they seek the absolute lowest energy cost (the difference of paying 1c more per kWh can be essential) means that they are the energy consumer of last resort. Hydrodams and other renewables often produce at moments that demand is lower, and having a bitcoin miner nearby that is willing to gobble up all your excess production means your solar farm or hydrodam suddenly makes a profit at most times of the day.

It also means that investors are more willing to invest in renewable energy in places where formerly, building this infrastructure was impossible. There is a village in Malawi, Afrika where building a hydro dam was possible, but not financially sensible. None of the villagers had electric appliances, so building the dam meant running it would not be profitable for a very long time. Now, you can just add a set of bitcoin miners and run the dam at 100% capacity until people start installing freezers, televisions, etc. This benefits the investors, the villagers, and the bitcoin ecosystem.

Bitcoin's environmental costs is a highly politicized complex puzzle that is hardly as negative as the mainstream media and anyone that hasn't researched it claims it is. It bothers me to no end.

11. ◴[] No.44002997{6}[source]
12. olalonde ◴[] No.44003029{6}[source]
Oops, you're right, I forgot about that. Updated my comment.

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/3911

13. frontfor ◴[] No.44003867[source]
Bitcoin is a massive failure as a currency.
replies(1): >>44004236 #
14. olalonde ◴[] No.44004236[source]
It's the largest non-government-issued currency in the world, and its money supply exceeds that of many fiat currencies[0]. But since "massive failure" is a subjective judgment, it's hard to argue with that.

[0] https://fiatmarketcap.com/

replies(1): >>44008587 #
15. immibis ◴[] No.44008587{3}[source]
No, it's the largest non-government-issued speculative asset. A currency can support far more than 7 transactions per second globally.

Late edit: If I wanted to use a centralized payment network, I'd just use euros. The centralized euro payment network is much better than the centralized bitcoin payment network.

replies(1): >>44008890 #
16. olalonde ◴[] No.44008890{4}[source]
Bitcoin can handle just as many transactions per second as fiat currencies when used over the same centralized payment networks (e.g., credit cards, PayPal, bank transfers). The key difference is that Bitcoin also provides a permissionless, decentralized settlement layer - something fiat currencies fundamentally lack. If you're comparing base layers directly, it's arguably 7 TPS (Bitcoin) vs. 0 TPS (fiat).