←back to thread

1210 points jbegley | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
bawolff ◴[] No.43658003[source]
The missing part of this article: are the requests valid? Are they actually incitements to terrorism and violence or is it just a clamp down on criticism? The headline of the article implies the latter but the body does not provide any evidence for that.

Like there is a war going on, a pretty nasty one at that. I would expect there to be quite a lot of incitement to violence related to that. I would expect the israeli government to be mostly concerned with incitements of violence against its citizens. In the context of this conflict i would expect such incitements to be mostly be made by the demographics cited in the article due to the nature of the conflict. The article seems like it could be entirely consistent with take downs being used appropriately. It needs more then this to prove its headline.

Heck, from this post we dont even know relative numbers. How does this compare against take down requests from other groups?

replies(10): >>43658099 #>>43659314 #>>43660724 #>>43660804 #>>43662269 #>>43662614 #>>43662636 #>>43673364 #>>43674847 #>>43678221 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43662614[source]
Defending yourself from genocide is not terrorism
replies(2): >>43663807 #>>43663904 #
reissbaker ◴[] No.43663807[source]
When do you think the supposed genocide started?
replies(1): >>43664065 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43664065{3}[source]
1948
replies(1): >>43664466 #
reissbaker ◴[] No.43664466{4}[source]
Interesting! And in this supposed 77 year long genocide, did the population size of Palestinians decrease?
replies(2): >>43665213 #>>43668547 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43665213{5}[source]
Not a determining factor. Genocide is the commission of one of the five prohibited acts with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, any national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
replies(1): >>43665430 #
reissbaker ◴[] No.43665430{6}[source]
A bit hard to show "intent to destroy" if for 77 years of rule, they haven't actually done it, though. I mean, in what other "genocide" did the population grow, year over year, for 77 years? Can you name a single one where the population grew for even five years of "genocide"?
replies(2): >>43665533 #>>43669773 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43665533{7}[source]
"in whole or in part"

Can you read?

The end goal of the Zionist project has always been the complete expulsion of Palestinians. That's intent.

replies(1): >>43665681 #
reissbaker ◴[] No.43665681{8}[source]
Mmhm. And not only can I read — it would be quite amazing if I could write the posts you're angrily responding to without being able to read — I'm also pointing out that there is nothing that qualifies as a 77-year genocide in which the population grows year over year the entire time. No serious scholarship exists that even claims a 77 year genocide starting in 1948. Every time someone dies in a conflict, does not equate to an attempt to destroy a people "in whole or in part" — quite obviously, or else even a murder would count as a genocide, along with every single war ever. Certainly Palestinians have killed Israelis with the intent to destroy them — even prior to 1948. In fact, it was Israelis who accepted the 1948 partition plan, and the Palestinians who rejected it in favor of a war that they subsequently lost (but intended to win, and killed many people while trying!). Have the Palestinians been committing genocide for 100 years? No, obviously not. Your claims do not hold water and do not support a 77-year supposed genocide. Please try again.

BTW the five acts are: killing — typically systematic, targeting civilians rather than militants; bodily/mental harm (e.g widespread slavery, systematic rape); deliberately inflicting conditions meant to destroy the group (e.g. mass starvation); forced birth control e.g. the Uyghur genocide; or forcible transfer of children outside of the group. If any of these things had been systematically happening for 77 years straight as you claim, the population would not have grown: it would have been demolished, like in every other case. That's the whole point of the term genocide, vs other, lesser terms. If the group wasn't meaningfully destroyed, it's pretty unlikely there was a genocide.

Even if it were true that the end goal of Zionism has always been the complete expulsion of the Palestinians — which isn't the case, and in fact many early Zionists advocated for peacefully living together, as do plenty of modern ones — expulsion is not genocide, or else India and Pakistan have been committing genocide against each other for even longer. Even with that steelman you're still wrong!

replies(1): >>43666343 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43666343{9}[source]
>BTW the five acts are: killing — typically systematic, targeting civilians rather than militants; bodily/mental harm (e.g widespread slavery, systematic rape); deliberately inflicting conditions meant to destroy the group (e.g. mass starvation);

Check, check and check. And Zionism has always been seeking to expel Palestinians, despite your dubious claims to the contrary. Success is not a requisite as written in the genocide convention. Your population stats are irrelevant.

Try this: go on Israeli politicians twitters. Read the Hebrew language ones and translate them to English. Report back.

replies(1): >>43669794 #
1. reissbaker ◴[] No.43669794{10}[source]
I don't need to translate them to English, I speak Hebrew. There are far right ministers who say insane things, there are far left ministers who say the exact opposite, and both call themselves Zionists. You don't speak Hebrew so you need someone to point you to tweets to translate, and you've been pointed only at the far right ones and that's why you think those are the only ones that exist.

If it was actually "check, check, and check" for 77 years, the population would go down, obviously, unless you believe Palestinians are each the second coming of Jesus Christ and can return from the dead at will. No serious academic scholarship agrees with you, and common sense is that you're wrong too. A genocide involves actually attempting to destroy a lot of people systematically, not periodic violence over land squabbles in which neither side is significantly reduced.

There is certainly debate over whether the current war — starting on Oct. 7th — has devolved into genocide, although there isn't scholarly agreement on that (nor legal agreement, as the international courts haven't issued rulings yet; they've only declined to dismiss the case). But a 77-year genocide is a fantasy, in order to avoid thinking deeply about your preferred side's complicity in this endless conflict — and indeed in the current war, which they started, and in which they committed numerous war crimes (and continue to commit war crimes).