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293 points doener | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.818s | source
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jk20 ◴[] No.23831245[source]
U.S. is just concerned that China, and not them, will get an edge in spying and the next industrial revolution. Speaking of human rights it should be noted that U.S. not only wantonly attacks or bullies other countries, but it also has the highest incarceration rate in the world - in absolute terms the number of inmates is comparable to that of China and India combined.
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rashkov ◴[] No.23831502[source]
Regarding your first point, yes, that’s an interesting take. Regarding the criticism of the US, yes you’re probably correct, but this is a “what about” argument that doesn’t really aid the discussion in my opinion.
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Barrin92 ◴[] No.23831648[source]
Whataboutism gets brought out too fast to dismiss discussion. Democratic systems project their values by demonstrating them. A democratic state that cannot show that its values work will have no ability to demand of others to emulate it.

In that context the failures of the US (as it is de-facto the standard-bearer of political liberalism in a broad sense), have real influence.

When the Chinese look around the world and they see the state of the US on imprisonment, racial conflict, failure during the current covid crisis and so on, this strengthens the domestic control of the party and the alternative autocratic system the government is advocating.

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1. Barrin92 ◴[] No.23831825[source]
nobody is saying that that is worse than literal concentration camps, what people are saying is that failures to live up to racial justice at home weaken your ability to authentically criticize violations abroad, and that's a very valid point.

And as far as communications infrastructure is concerned it's relevant too. In countries like Germany or Eastern Europe in particular the behaviour of espionage among allies over recent years has created an atmosphere of "well everyone is spying on us anyway" substantially weakening the case against Huawei, say.

Also as far as discussion here is concerned, most people here are from Western countries, so at the end of the day discussions will mostly be about our own behaviours.

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2. Karunamon ◴[] No.23831979[source]
>weaken your ability to authentically criticize violations abroad

It does no such thing. Being a hypocrite does not impact the correctness or incorrectness of what you're saying (which is why the tu quoque fallacy is a fallacy), doubly so when we're talking about entirely different categories of abuses that invalidate the hypocrisy charge anyways.

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3. Barrin92 ◴[] No.23832242{3}[source]
correctness isn't what's relevant in (geo)politics. What matters is being able to influence others and get your interests across. And on that front being a hypocrite matters, both domestically as well as internationally.

Listing off fallacies is great in internet discussions, but it's not how the world works. To be honest it's also not really how internet discussions work any more because everyone's grown sick of it.