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Twitter hides Donald Trump tweet for “glorifying violence”

(twitter.com)
1061 points danso | 59 comments | 29 May 20 07:24 UTC | HN request time: 0.596s | source | bottom
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partiallypro ◴[29 May 20 15:16 UTC] No.23350905[source]▶
Twitter is well within the rights to do this, but I have seen tweets from blue check marks essentially calling for violence and Twitter didn't remove them. So, does that mean Twitter actually -supports- those view points now? If Twitter is going to police people, it needs to be across the board. Otherwise it's just a weird censorship that is targeting one person and can easily be seen as political.

Everyone is applauding this because they hate Trump, but take a step back and see the bigger picture. This could backfire in serious ways, and it plays to Trump's base's narrative that the mainstream media and tech giants are colluding to silence conservatives (and maybe there could even be some truth to that.) I know the Valley is an echo chamber, so obviously no one is going to ever realize this.

replies(35): >>23350963 #>>23351063 #>>23351117 #>>23351215 #>>23351218 #>>23351256 #>>23351291 #>>23351365 #>>23351367 #>>23351370 #>>23351380 #>>23351415 #>>23351424 #>>23351434 #>>23351471 #>>23351559 #>>23351591 #>>23351631 #>>23351685 #>>23351712 #>>23351729 #>>23351776 #>>23351793 #>>23351887 #>>23351928 #>>23352027 #>>23352201 #>>23352388 #>>23352822 #>>23352854 #>>23352953 #>>23353440 #>>23353605 #>>23354917 #>>23355009 #
1. phailhaus ◴[29 May 20 15:41 UTC] No.23351291[source]▶
Eh? Do you have any examples? This is nothing new, Twitter has been applying this standard to tweets for a very long time (it's part of their ToS!). It usually results in deleting your tweet or an outright ban. The only difference here is that they've kept the tweet up since they deem it to be in the public's interest.
replies(7): >>23351347 #>>23351358 #>>23351763 #>>23351854 #>>23352523 #>>23353667 #>>23355046 #
2. formalsystem ◴[29 May 20 15:44 UTC] No.23351347[source]▶
https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/1266340243134963712

EDIT: Scroll down a bit, the original poster made their account private a few moments ago

replies(5): >>23351398 #>>23351470 #>>23351474 #>>23351966 #>>23351999 #
3. misiti3780 ◴[29 May 20 15:45 UTC] No.23351358[source]▶
How about this one:

https://twitter.com/kathygriffin/status/1086927762634399744?...

replies(3): >>23351397 #>>23351419 #>>23351463 #
4. geofft ◴[29 May 20 15:49 UTC] No.23351398[source]▶
It's been a couple of hours - in general, saying stuff like that actually does in fact get Twitter's content moderation to kick in and force you to delete the tweet, and I regularly see folks who aren't conservative get temporary suspensions for it.
replies(1): >>23352352 #
5. adamch ◴[29 May 20 15:50 UTC] No.23351419[source]▶
You could say requesting dox is a form of violence. But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people. It's reasonable that a policy of removing tweets that glorify violence would catch one but not the other.
replies(3): >>23351811 #>>23351908 #>>23352656 #
6. phailhaus ◴[29 May 20 15:53 UTC] No.23351463[source]▶
That's not a violation of the ToS.
7. augustt ◴[29 May 20 15:54 UTC] No.23351470[source]▶
Damaging property is not violence.
replies(4): >>23351714 #>>23351753 #>>23351835 #>>23351862 #
8. phailhaus ◴[29 May 20 15:54 UTC] No.23351474[source]▶
Whatever tweet he retweeted, it's now unavailable. Looks like Twitter's moderation policies are working as expected.
replies(3): >>23351516 #>>23351534 #>>23351597 #
9. ImprobableTruth ◴[29 May 20 15:56 UTC] No.23351516{3}[source]▶
They protected their tweets.
replies(1): >>23351621 #
10. dnissley ◴[29 May 20 15:57 UTC] No.23351534{3}[source]▶
She just made her tweets private is why that's happening
11. misiti3780 ◴[29 May 20 16:00 UTC] No.23351580{3}[source]▶
im not the trump crowd
replies(1): >>23351779 #
12. Y_Y ◴[29 May 20 16:01 UTC] No.23351597{3}[source]▶
"burn it down. fuck property. fuck cops."

That's what the tweet says, there are screenshots in the replies.

replies(1): >>23352587 #
13. dnissley ◴[29 May 20 16:08 UTC] No.23351714{3}[source]▶
By pretty much every definition it is violence.
14. Avicebron ◴[29 May 20 16:10 UTC] No.23351753{3}[source]▶
This is not quite true, losing property can cause real material harm to someone. If my house burns down and I'm on the streets, there is a real chance of harm to my person. Also now apparently words can be violence and cause the cancellation of someone..pretty sure it's all up for grabs now.
15. ◴[29 May 20 16:11 UTC] No.23351763[source]▶
16. jrockway ◴[29 May 20 16:12 UTC] No.23351779{4}[source]▶
If you read the replies to Trump's tweet on Twitter, half of them are whining about Kathy Griffin. She's their favorite example of how Twitter has a liberal bias today. Maybe you coincidentally picked the same example as them.
replies(1): >>23351864 #
17. ◴[29 May 20 16:13 UTC] No.23351798{5}[source]▶
18. misiti3780 ◴[29 May 20 16:13 UTC] No.23351811{3}[source]▶
agreed, im not saying this is equal to trump, but i don't think anyone here downvoting me would want to be doxed by someone with 2.1 million followers, regardless of if she is a comedian or not.
19. NikolaeVarius ◴[29 May 20 16:15 UTC] No.23351835{3}[source]▶
It literally is part of the definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence
replies(1): >>23352413 #
20. ◴[29 May 20 16:16 UTC] No.23351854[source]▶
21. Nasrudith ◴[29 May 20 16:16 UTC] No.23351862{3}[source]▶
I am pretty sure you would disagree if someone started smashing your front door or car. It is at best technically true in a deeply misleading way like calling a surgeon "a professional cutter and organ remover from the helpless".
replies(1): >>23351982 #
22. misiti3780 ◴[29 May 20 16:17 UTC] No.23351864{5}[source]▶
I listen to both sides, and I don't pay attention to what people say on twitter too much (it's the not "real" world). again, I'm not saying this tweet is equal to what trump said, it's clearly not --- But if someone had harmed or killed one of these kids because of this dox, I'm not sure your objections would stand. And with 2.1M followers, that is in realm of possibilities

Do you think twitter has a liberal bias?

replies(1): >>23352709 #
23. lukaa ◴[29 May 20 16:19 UTC] No.23351908{3}[source]▶
''But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people.'' You know, he is president, that gives him right to use or threaten with violence if he thinks that safety of country is seriously in danger. If you think that he is breaking constitution there is court to decide about that.
replies(1): >>23352366 #
24. ◴[29 May 20 16:22 UTC] No.23351966[source]▶
25. augustt ◴[29 May 20 16:24 UTC] No.23351982{4}[source]▶
I wouldn't be too happy, but to me violence is damaging a living thing. Not property.
replies(2): >>23352152 #>>23352171 #
26. Miner49er ◴[29 May 20 16:25 UTC] No.23351999[source]▶
"Violence" against property doesn't really compare to killing people, IMO.

I don't really even think property damage should be included in the definition of "violence" and maybe Twitter agrees with me.

She also didn't say what to burn down. Trump was very clear that looters are who he wanted shot. Burn it down is a common saying that can mean anything from literally burning stuff to just tearing down a system in order to rebuild.

replies(1): >>23352435 #
27. Nasrudith ◴[29 May 20 16:38 UTC] No.23352152{5}[source]▶
There is an implied threat and cohersion to it of "do it or else" or "I can break you too". That is the violence against the person. Smashing your own car in front of somebody's house wouldn't include that threat as it is their property to what they wish although it would make you look crazy.
28. NikolaeVarius ◴[29 May 20 16:39 UTC] No.23352171{5}[source]▶
I have a cane that I need to use to walk. Somebody breaks my cane. What is that?
replies(3): >>23352450 #>>23352717 #>>23356251 #
29. dunkelheit ◴[29 May 20 16:50 UTC] No.23352352{3}[source]▶
> It's been a couple of hours

She posted that tweet more like 11 hours ago. Since that time it has become somewhat infamous - I've seen it in my deliberately not-politicized timeline and separately here on HN. What is the chance their content moderation team hasn't seen it?

30. Jtsummers ◴[29 May 20 16:51 UTC] No.23352366{4}[source]▶
> ''But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people.'' You know, he is president, that gives him right to use or threaten with violence if he thinks that safety of country is seriously in danger. If you think that he is breaking constitution there is court to decide about that.

That's actually not true. There are legal bounds to what violence he can and cannot threaten. The President is not a dictator, in which case you would be correct. And we don't have to wait for a court to decide that the order is illegal. Members of the military are actually supposed to refuse illegal orders, not obey them blindly like good little Nazis.

replies(1): >>23352800 #
31. adrianmonk ◴[29 May 20 16:56 UTC] No.23352413{4}[source]▶
In this case, doesn't Twitter's definition of violence matter more than the dictionary's definition? Here it is:

> Glorification of violence policy

...

> You may not threaten violence against an individual or a group of people. We also prohibit the glorification of violence.

(https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/glorification...)

replies(1): >>23352687 #
32. rayiner ◴[29 May 20 16:57 UTC] No.23352435{3}[source]▶
> "Violence" against property doesn't really compare to killing people, IMO.

That's the kind of thing that results in the insidious left-wing bias of sites like Twitter. Moderators who don't believe that property damage is a blatant violation of peoples' rights, but do believe peoples' rights are violated by mere words alone, and moderating in accordance with such views.

replies(3): >>23352547 #>>23353361 #>>23354129 #
33. Rychard ◴[29 May 20 16:58 UTC] No.23352450{6}[source]▶
Such a scenario would be unfortunate. The lack of context makes it impossible to determine with any certainty.
34. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:04 UTC] No.23352523[source]▶
Would the same happen if Theil owned Twitter, and fact checked, etc. Joe Biden? IMO we would see the opposite, and liberal politicians calling for Twitter to be taken down. One person's soap box is another's tabloid.
replies(2): >>23352592 #>>23353179 #
35. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:06 UTC] No.23352547{4}[source]▶
Property damage is absolutely a violation of people's rights, which is why property was added to the constitution. Outrage does not negate a business owners rights.
36. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:09 UTC] No.23352587{4}[source]▶
Let's compare that to "when the looting starts the shooting begins".

Which is an observation, and which is a directive? I think that is the key question that Twitter is dodging. They want to editorialize with their opinion as to which is which, but not for everyone.

replies(1): >>23352843 #
37. phailhaus ◴[29 May 20 17:09 UTC] No.23352592[source]▶
Do you have any examples of liberal politicians calling for social media platforms to be taken down for fact checking or enforcing their terms of service? Simply saying "in my opinion they'd do the same thing" is not convincing.
replies(1): >>23352706 #
38. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:13 UTC] No.23352656{3}[source]▶
Which is violence: Doxing, or using the information to call in a swat team? If the swatting occured, it was the Doxing which directly led to it. It's a loaded gun.
39. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:16 UTC] No.23352687{5}[source]▶
What if a person said it as opinion: Looting has the potential to initiate shootings. Are we looking at an opinion, an observation, or glorying violence.
replies(2): >>23353849 #>>23363834 #
40. Simulacra ◴[29 May 20 17:17 UTC] No.23352706{3}[source]▶
I'm not trying to convince you. I'm stating my opinion which you happen to disagree with. There are no liberal politicians that I can find calling for fact checking because, for now, Twitter is working in their favor.
replies(1): >>23352879 #
41. vkou ◴[29 May 20 17:18 UTC] No.23352717{6}[source]▶
It's something similar to buying up the rights for, and increasing the price of a life-necessarry drug by 2000%. Is that also violence?
replies(1): >>23352927 #
42. techntoke ◴[29 May 20 17:27 UTC] No.23352843{5}[source]▶
Hacker News frequently threatens censorship, prevents users from responding for several hours, etc. Do you think they should have that right since it is their platform?
43. techntoke ◴[29 May 20 17:29 UTC] No.23352879{4}[source]▶
Liberal politicians would be smart enough to call for decentralized syndicated social media solutions. Democrats aren't a party that needs constant media attention in order to polarize America.
44. wtetzner ◴[29 May 20 17:33 UTC] No.23352927{7}[source]▶
I can see an argument that it is.
45. Jtsummers ◴[29 May 20 17:35 UTC] No.23352954{6}[source]▶
> Unfortunately, what you are saying lead to anarchy.

That is a big, and unjustified, leap. Can you explain this assertion?

> You just said that we live in democracy.

I didn't say that, though it is a statement I'd agree with.

> In democracy disputes are settled in court.

This is not actually required to be a democracy. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Many things are already settled, either in law, the constitution, treaties, or, yes, court decisions, but do not require further court decisions. One of those is this: Military members are not obligated to follow illegal orders, and can actually be held accountable for failure to disobey.

replies(1): >>23353174 #
46. lukaa ◴[29 May 20 17:51 UTC] No.23353174{7}[source]▶
''Military members are not obligated to follow illegal orders''. Ok, but this is not clear situation. Violence exists, therefore it needs to be stopped. Police station is burned down. Once police is not able to stop violence using military is only option.
replies(1): >>23353367 #
47. mschuster91 ◴[29 May 20 17:51 UTC] No.23353179[source]▶
> Would the same happen if Theil owned Twitter, and fact checked, etc. Joe Biden?

No, it would not, because generally left-wing people don't spread lies with the intention to dissuade people from voting (quite to the contrary, the left wing is fighting for people to have the right and means to vote) or call for storming the White House and start shooting.

replies(1): >>23355266 #
48. misiti3780 ◴[29 May 20 17:59 UTC] No.23353295{7}[source]▶
As i said above, I'm not a trump supporter.
49. geofft ◴[29 May 20 18:02 UTC] No.23353361{4}[source]▶
Let me make sure I understand your position properly - are you saying that it is insidious left-sing bias to believe that people's rights can be violated by mere words alone?

The entire purpose of Section 230 is to provide protection against civil liability for platforms who publish mere words from their users. Is your position, then, that if we remove the insidious left-wing bias from our political system, there's no need for Section 230 because platforms can never be liable for the mere words that they republish?

Are all of the commentators who are asking for Twitter's Section 230 protections to be removed, including the president, part of an insidious left-wing conspiracy?

50. Jtsummers ◴[29 May 20 18:02 UTC] No.23353367{8}[source]▶
Police (and the military if they're being used as a police force) do not have the authority to fire on looters. It would actually be illegal. And an order to do so is, as a consequence, an illegal order.

Regarding the burning down of the police station, that is a different kind of violence and a violent response from the police would've been more warranted.

replies(1): >>23354038 #
51. partiallypro ◴[29 May 20 18:26 UTC] No.23353667[source]▶
There are tons of examples. Look in almost any thread and there are people calling for public hangings of politicians, assassinations. The "guillotine" crowd. People telling people to burn down the city. Some people saying anti-Semitic stuff...I've reported a lot of this. Twitter usually comes back and say they found it wasn't in violation of anything. There are other politicians, such as Chinese officials, Iranian officials the Twitter has not policed or marked as misleading despite them being outright anti-Semitic or propaganda.
52. joshuamorton ◴[29 May 20 18:39 UTC] No.23353849{6}[source]▶
If I said that, it's an observation. If the chief of police said that, it's an implied threat. This is because I don't have the power to initiate shootings, while the chief of police does. There is a power differential, and statements can be viewed in the context of the person making them.

This is why phrases like "we should nuke them from orbit", which might be calls to violence if made by a head of state, are generally seen as satire, because there's no chance of me actually nuking someone from orbit. Context matters.

53. lukaa ◴[29 May 20 18:54 UTC] No.23354038{9}[source]▶
But what if looters as in this case are also burning buildings that they are looting?
replies(1): >>23355057 #
54. kthxbye123 ◴[29 May 20 19:01 UTC] No.23354129{4}[source]▶
There is no equivalence between property damage equivalent to killing, much as there is no equivalence between a random twitter user “calling for the guillotines” and the commander of the armed forces threatening to unleash a massacre. It is beyond bad faith to argue otherwise.
55. oska ◴[29 May 20 20:22 UTC] No.23355046[source]▶
It wasn't explicitly calling for violence but Elon Musk's recent tweet [1] calling for "politicians & unelected bureaucrats" to be "tarred, feathered & thrown out of town" certainly was trending in that direction and could easily have been interpreted as a call for violence, or at least assault, by some sections of Musk's vast (35 million) collection of followers. Especially when the particular 'unelected bureaucrat' that Musk had been most vociferously complaining about and attacking, the Alameda County Health Officer, had been named in numerous news reports.

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1261100731378982912

56. Jtsummers ◴[29 May 20 20:23 UTC] No.23355057{10}[source]▶
Then that is a different circumstance. What's your point?
57. exclusiv ◴[29 May 20 20:41 UTC] No.23355266{3}[source]▶
Different side of the coin. They often spread lies to persuade people to vote for them. Almost everyone in politics is full of it.

If you believe your side is the good one and the other is bad, it's probably because it's part of your identity. And that prevents you from thinking about it honestly and results in more polarization. Once you accept they're all full of it, you will think more clearly. And you'll have better dialogue with opposing viewpoints.

58. tareqak ◴[29 May 20 22:23 UTC] No.23356251{6}[source]▶
Was the cane broken intentionally or unintentionally?
59. adrianmonk ◴[30 May 20 19:19 UTC] No.23363834{6}[source]▶
If some hypothetical person said it as an opinion or an observation, you'd have to look at Twitter's policy and try to understand the spirit of the law. Threats are a direct form of pro-violence speech, and glorifying violence is an indirect form of pro-violence speech, so it seem to cover a spectrum to me.

But whichever way they interpret it, all that really matters when it comes to fairness is that they are consistent.

If we look at a very non-hypothetical person named Donald Trump, he wrote "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" immediately after "I won't let that happen" and "the Military" and "we will assume control". Without context, the words could be just an opinion or observation, but in the context he used them, that's not a reasonable interpretation. You don't mention sending in the military (who have guns, obviously) and then mention shooting as a total non sequitur in the next sentence.

If somehow improbably he meant it to be an opinion or observation, he phrased it terribly, and Twitter is within their rights to interpret it how he wrote it.