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1061 points danso | 312 comments | | HN request time: 0.677s | source | bottom
1. partiallypro ◴[] No.23350905[source]
Twitter is well within the rights to do this, but I have seen tweets from blue check marks essentially calling for violence and Twitter didn't remove them. So, does that mean Twitter actually -supports- those view points now? If Twitter is going to police people, it needs to be across the board. Otherwise it's just a weird censorship that is targeting one person and can easily be seen as political.

Everyone is applauding this because they hate Trump, but take a step back and see the bigger picture. This could backfire in serious ways, and it plays to Trump's base's narrative that the mainstream media and tech giants are colluding to silence conservatives (and maybe there could even be some truth to that.) I know the Valley is an echo chamber, so obviously no one is going to ever realize this.

replies(35): >>23350963 #>>23351063 #>>23351117 #>>23351215 #>>23351218 #>>23351256 #>>23351291 #>>23351365 #>>23351367 #>>23351370 #>>23351380 #>>23351415 #>>23351424 #>>23351434 #>>23351471 #>>23351559 #>>23351591 #>>23351631 #>>23351685 #>>23351712 #>>23351729 #>>23351776 #>>23351793 #>>23351887 #>>23351928 #>>23352027 #>>23352201 #>>23352388 #>>23352822 #>>23352854 #>>23352953 #>>23353440 #>>23353605 #>>23354917 #>>23355009 #
2. youeseh ◴[] No.23350963[source]
Instead of being the police, Twitter should do what Rotten Tomatoes does. There are plenty of people - journalists and researchers analyzing the facts behind what celebrities say. They should analyze what the analysts say and display a score.
replies(3): >>23351034 #>>23351965 #>>23354379 #
3. tantalor ◴[] No.23351034[source]
[insert black mirror joke reference]
4. kingnight ◴[] No.23351063[source]
The valley being an echo chamber doesn’t necessarily mean those implementing this have their heads in the sand.

It can’t be all perfectly achieved, but to do nothing, as they were before, could be now determined to be a worse case than providing these annotations to flagrant misuse by the highest impact profile that they can’t do away with entirely.

replies(2): >>23351131 #>>23351357 #
5. atomi ◴[] No.23351117[source]
It's important context to note that Trump's tweets are the most widely publicized. As such it should be self evident as to why they would focus their limited resources to policing tweets such as his.
6. sevenf0ur ◴[] No.23351131[source]
The issue is that the rules are being enforced selectively. Just this week Twitter fact checked Trump's opinion on mail voter fraud by linking to other experts' opinions. It seems more like a move to influence the election rather than enforcing the rules.
replies(5): >>23351326 #>>23351337 #>>23351736 #>>23351828 #>>23353335 #
7. paulgb ◴[] No.23351215[source]
> If Twitter is going to police people, it needs to be across the board.

One way to look at this is that that's exactly what Twitter has started doing. The president violated the TOS, and got the treatment prescribed under the TOS. His EO yesterday essentially asked for everyone to be treated in accordance with the TOS, so he's (ironically) getting exactly what he asked for.

It remains to be seen whether, in compliance with the EO, they apply this to everyone in a transparent and uniform way from now on. I hope they do.

replies(1): >>23351277 #
8. hpoe ◴[] No.23351218[source]
There is a worse side effect that comes from conservatives feeling that they have been silenced, as people feel like they have less and less say in a political process they are more and more likely to start employing means outside of it. The real risk here is that if more and more outlets for conservative voices are silenced, whether for good cause or not, this will reinforce the narrative that many of them have that they are the defenders of the truth and right and there is a vast conspiracy operating to seize their guns, deprive them of their rights, and whatever else they can imagine. As that happens there becomes more and more moral justification and greater and greater need there is seen to employ violence in end of their goals.

Ultimately the more and more "dangerous" opinions and people who share those opinions are silenced the more and more dangerous they become in reality.

EDIT: The nature of this comment is intended to be observational not advocational.

replies(5): >>23351371 #>>23351391 #>>23351759 #>>23351978 #>>23353314 #
9. ◴[] No.23351256[source]
10. dfxm12 ◴[] No.23351277[source]
Wait, Trump, the guy who had a platform plank complaining about his predecessors' use of executive orders as "power grabs" [0], actually issued an executive order about Twitter's TOS?

0 - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-19/trump-...

replies(2): >>23351355 #>>23351513 #
11. phailhaus ◴[] No.23351291[source]
Eh? Do you have any examples? This is nothing new, Twitter has been applying this standard to tweets for a very long time (it's part of their ToS!). It usually results in deleting your tweet or an outright ban. The only difference here is that they've kept the tweet up since they deem it to be in the public's interest.
replies(7): >>23351347 #>>23351358 #>>23351763 #>>23351854 #>>23352523 #>>23353667 #>>23355046 #
12. ecf ◴[] No.23351326{3}[source]
Let’s entertain the possibility that Twitter is doing this to influence the election.

So what?

There’s no law prohibiting these types of businesses from supporting a political candidate. They could plaster a huge “Vote For X” banner at the top of every person’s profile. Don’t like it? Don’t use it.

It’s not like Twitter is tax-exempt which would prohibit it from endorsing candidates like Churches.

replies(2): >>23351919 #>>23352434 #
13. charwalker ◴[] No.23351337{3}[source]
They are finally stepping up and enforcing their ToS. I can see this response as a followup to the EIO signed yesterday as an example of what they might have to do if the interpretation of existing law is changed and platforms become liable for content they host. Like, that would induce harsher restrictions on posting and modding content though it would be complicated if that also made twitter a publisher. Their model may no longer be viable at that point as they could be sued for leaving up violent or misleading content AND sued as a publisher for what they take down.

It's within their rights to do take these actions, fact checks and hiding/deleting tweets, to protect their ecosystem. If it is questionably legal because it may influence the election, then I haven't seen the law it is breaking. I see a better argument for showing Twitter promoting Trump's feed to drive clicks as an in kind donation which could quickly break legal campaign donation limits.

Twitter has taken a stand here and I do think they should apply their policies evenly. Will they effectively apply this to everything or even have the capacity built out now to do so? I doubt it. They are a business who needs user engagement to drive profit from ads. If they constrain their most clicked tweets it could lower their revenue even if initially those tweets get attention for being removed.

replies(1): >>23351603 #
14. formalsystem ◴[] No.23351347[source]
https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/1266340243134963712

EDIT: Scroll down a bit, the original poster made their account private a few moments ago

replies(5): >>23351398 #>>23351470 #>>23351474 #>>23351966 #>>23351999 #
15. bcrosby95 ◴[] No.23351355{3}[source]
It's nothing new. Politics is a team based sport. My brother calls Obama "King Obama" but is still a huge fan of Trump. I've discussed some of this stuff with him: in his eyes, Obama did stuff he shouldn't have, so Trump can do stuff he shouldn't.
replies(5): >>23351579 #>>23352071 #>>23352497 #>>23352549 #>>23355931 #
16. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351357[source]
The legal issue is that their legal protection from defamation and libel under section 230 requires them to moderate "in good faith". If they only selective moderate accounts, then that protection may not survive in court.

...but I think a greater concern we can all agree on, is that for the type of communications that Twitter does - Twitter is effectively a monopoly. The people being censored here can't even themselves go to any alternative platform, because there's really no other platform at that scale for that content format.

...that's a bigger problem, because it gives Twitter the power to shape global communications unilaterally. Something no corporation should have the power to do.

I think, broadly, that censorship should be regulated by democratically elected bodies - not corporations.

replies(4): >>23351682 #>>23351693 #>>23351806 #>>23352127 #
17. misiti3780 ◴[] No.23351358[source]
How about this one:

https://twitter.com/kathygriffin/status/1086927762634399744?...

replies(3): >>23351397 #>>23351419 #>>23351463 #
18. ◴[] No.23351365[source]
19. modwest ◴[] No.23351367[source]
it's almost like the president of the united states is held to a higher standard than some random jackanapes with a "blue check" next to their name.
20. geofft ◴[] No.23351370[source]
There is absolutely some truth that the mainstream media and tech giants are colluding to silence conservatives - the truth is that the mainstream "conservative" position in the US happens to involve behavior that runs afoul of neutral content norms (don't threaten people with violence, don't call them racial slurs, don't dox people, etc.) disproportionately more often than people with other political beliefs. Sure, there are some people of other political persuasions who are "essentially" calling for violence, but there's a large gap between "as MLK said, a riot is the language of the unheard, so I can't condemn it" (and even that is hardly a universal position among non-conservatives) and "I, the actual commander-in-chief of an actual military, am telling that military to use violence against my own people" + "We all think this is good and proper, do it."

This is an uncomfortable, rude, politically incorrect truth - but we're not going to have a productive discussion about "silencing conservatives" if we can't admit it.

It is absolutely possible to advocate for the political positions of conservatives (looking through the 2016 GOP platform, for instance - limited government, federalism, avoiding trade deficits, repeal of Dodd-Frank, auditing the Fed, right-to-work, opposition to abortion, support for the electoral college, removing gray wolves from the endangered species list, etc., etc.) without behavior that runs afoul of the norms. If there's a case where Twitter suspends someone for opposing Dodd-Frank, then we should absolutely criticize Twitter. (And I think there's a legitimate discussion to be had about where the line is about criticizing the government's pandemic response vs. spreading misinformation, for instance.) But saying "Conservatives really like to advocate for shooting people without due process, Twitter doesn't permit the advocacy of shooting people without due process, therefore Twitter is biased against conservatives" is more of a statement about conservatives than about Twitter.

replies(1): >>23354227 #
21. jrockway ◴[] No.23351380[source]
I don't think any reasonable person would think that Twitter supports violence simply because they aren't removing posts from people who don't matter. When you have limited resources, you have to apply them in a way that has the most impact. Making sure the President of the United States is adhering to their ToS seems like a good place to start.

Remember that Twitter gets something like 500 million tweets per day. If it took someone working minimum wage 15 seconds to decide whether or not a tweet violates their ToS, Twitter would spend 30 million dollars a day on this, and the results probably wouldn't even be that good. So they don't do that, instead focusing resources where they will have the most impact.

I am also pretty sure they are not trying to censor conservative viewpoints. If Joe Biden starts telling people to go shoot looters or that Mitch McConnell murdered one of his aides, I am sure they will add a little note to those tweets.

replies(1): >>23351669 #
22. QuercusMax ◴[] No.23351391[source]
Alternatively - if those pushing the far-right violent rhetoric don't have as much of an audience, their support may fade because they don't have a platform.

Deplatforming works.

replies(3): >>23351568 #>>23351638 #>>23351640 #
23. geofft ◴[] No.23351398{3}[source]
It's been a couple of hours - in general, saying stuff like that actually does in fact get Twitter's content moderation to kick in and force you to delete the tweet, and I regularly see folks who aren't conservative get temporary suspensions for it.
replies(1): >>23352352 #
24. jtbayly ◴[] No.23351415[source]
I'm just going to say again that I can't for the life of me understand why people are in agreement that this tweet glorifies violence. It is a call to stop being violent lest violence increase.

Looting always leads to shooting. This is a simple fact.

I'm horrified that so many people think me saying that is glorifying violence. I don't understand it in the slightest. Seeing this tweet by Trump get silenced absolutely convinces me that there is a conspiracy. Not so much against the right, but against truth.

replies(5): >>23351495 #>>23351528 #>>23351639 #>>23351645 #>>23351975 #
25. adamch ◴[] No.23351419{3}[source]
You could say requesting dox is a form of violence. But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people. It's reasonable that a policy of removing tweets that glorify violence would catch one but not the other.
replies(3): >>23351811 #>>23351908 #>>23352656 #
26. dmode ◴[] No.23351424[source]
Twitter regularly hides violent tweets. It is just algo based and nothing to do with conservatives. I mean, it may seem biased if conservatives are posting a lot of violent tweets
27. kube-system ◴[] No.23351434[source]
The enforcement of rules in rarely applied with 100% accuracy in any realm. Not because the rule enforcers support some infractions, but because they have limited manpower and must prioritize their tasks.
28. phailhaus ◴[] No.23351463{3}[source]
That's not a violation of the ToS.
29. augustt ◴[] No.23351470{3}[source]
Damaging property is not violence.
replies(4): >>23351714 #>>23351753 #>>23351835 #>>23351862 #
30. fullshark ◴[] No.23351471[source]
It will absolutely backfire. Twitter is now going to editorialize re: their users' content. It's impossible to do this without being perceived as being biased, and twitter is already a partisan hellscape, it will only exacerbate the situation.
31. hpoe ◴[] No.23351473{3}[source]
The problem with your response if you've fundementally divided the world into the fearless, social justice serving left and the corrupt, evil, fascist, right. It can be assumed that the far right is not going to change their mind at any point; however the majority of the world isn't far right or far left. Many people are moderates that could go one way or the other.

By designating everyone who doesn't agree with you as "the right" that can't every act in good faith and is irredeemable you galvanize the more moderates. This incident won't have a substantive impact on the far right, but it may cause a change in opinion in more moderate voices.

Essentially be advocating this black and white extremism you hurt your cause and play into the very narrative that those on the other side are saying.

replies(1): >>23351586 #
32. phailhaus ◴[] No.23351474{3}[source]
Whatever tweet he retweeted, it's now unavailable. Looks like Twitter's moderation policies are working as expected.
replies(3): >>23351516 #>>23351534 #>>23351597 #
33. dmode ◴[] No.23351495[source]
You should read up on the history of the phrase "when looting starts, shooting starts"
replies(2): >>23351690 #>>23351731 #
34. jcranmer ◴[] No.23351513{3}[source]
Don't worry... he also criticized Obama for golfing too much, and has gone golfing more frequently than Obama.

And Senate Republicans have openly asked judges to resign so they can be replaced by conservative judges, and their justification for why it's okay to do this so close to an election but it wasn't okay to confirm Garland so close to an election literally amounts to "Obama's a Democrat, Trump's a Republican."

replies(2): >>23351791 #>>23351889 #
35. ImprobableTruth ◴[] No.23351516{4}[source]
They protected their tweets.
replies(1): >>23351621 #
36. wmkn ◴[] No.23351528[source]
Because the exact phrase has historical context [1] in a sense of: if you loot, we shoot. Clearly it wasn’t said in a sense of: looting inevitably leads to violence.

That makes it sound like Trump used it in a similar fashion.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/where-does-phrase-...

replies(1): >>23351622 #
37. dnissley ◴[] No.23351534{4}[source]
She just made her tweets private is why that's happening
38. throwaway894345 ◴[] No.23351559[source]
> I have seen tweets from blue check marks essentially calling for violence and Twitter didn't remove them

As a Twitter user, I've been concerned with this as well. Clicking on the Minneapolis riots "trend", roughly 1/3 of the top tweets were promoting violence while the overwhelming majority of the remainder were merely sympathetic toward the violence, with only a small sliver denouncing the violence. Note that I don't follow violent or far-left accounts (generally a-political tech accounts, and I'll unfollow people who have especially authoritarian or hateful views in either direction), yet these are overwhelmingly promoted to me (in general, not just in the particular case of the MN riots) either in trends or in the random "here, have this extreme, toxic Tweet from another follower of someone you follow" Tweets that Twitter tosses into my feed. I'm not sure that Twitter is actively promoting extreme left-wing views (it could be that Twitter's user base is really just so far left that its algorithms just can't find any moderate content for me or something), but I don't blame anyone for thinking it does.

EDIT: I'm aware this is a controversial topic, but I'm curious if I'm being downvoted because people don't believe my characterization of my timeline/trends or because my tone was less than thrilled with the volume of left-wing tweets I'm shown or something else. I'm a heretic and I don't deserve my Internet Points, so take them away, but indulge my curiosity about your specific objections! :)

replies(1): >>23355454 #
39. hpoe ◴[] No.23351568{3}[source]
It is an interesting question. Although de-platforming reduces the reach of a group does it increase the overall vitrol of the group, or the level of extremism?

Although it may mean fewer people become part of the community it would also mean that those that remain with it are now more isolated from the outside world and increase the precieved level of persecution? Would this then correlate with an increase in action?

I don't know the answer to this, it seems logical to me that each of these answers would be yes, but I definitely think it is a topic worth investigating and discussing.

40. dfxm12 ◴[] No.23351579{4}[source]
I can understand how people can rationalize some of his failures, but, the second time around, how can someone vote for a guy who has failed on delivering on a very simple and basic campaign promise, one that he can do that unilaterally?

“The country wasn’t based on executive orders,” Trump said at a South Carolina campaign stop in February 2016. “Right now, Obama goes around signing executive orders. He can’t even get along with the Democrats, and he goes around signing all these executive orders. It’s a basic disaster. You can’t do it.”

I know I'm probably pissing in the wind here, but I was looking forward to a president ceding some of his power back to congress, so this one really sticks in my craw. Oh well.

replies(2): >>23351903 #>>23353132 #
41. misiti3780 ◴[] No.23351580{4}[source]
im not the trump crowd
replies(1): >>23351779 #
42. luckydata ◴[] No.23351586{4}[source]
I'm sorry reality has taken such a fascist bent but it's not my fault, it's just something we have to contend with now. But your both-side-ism is morally reprehensible in the context of what's happening right now.
replies(1): >>23351663 #
43. ken ◴[] No.23351591[source]
> If Twitter is going to police people, it needs to be across the board.

That assumes that all users on Twitter are equal. By Twitter's own rules [1], there are two classes of users. Elected officials are held to a different standard. That's why this tweet is hidden behind a click, rather than removed. That's why Trump hasn't been banned despite repeatedly violating the TOS that he agreed to when he signed up for his account.

It makes sense to me that if elected officials (a tiny fraction of the population who already have a much bigger voice than the common citizen) are allowed to break the plebeian rules, then social media platforms should be more willing to point out when they're doing so.

[1]: https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/public-intere...

replies(2): >>23351607 #>>23353442 #
44. Y_Y ◴[] No.23351597{4}[source]
"burn it down. fuck property. fuck cops."

That's what the tweet says, there are screenshots in the replies.

replies(1): >>23352587 #
45. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351603{4}[source]
This is a policy they enacted last year. Can you cite any other examples of them using it?
46. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351607[source]
Can you cite other politicians that have been subject to these rules?
replies(1): >>23351981 #
47. gweinberg ◴[] No.23351622{3}[source]
Looting doesn't lead to violence, looting is violence.
replies(1): >>23351754 #
48. rhegart ◴[] No.23351631[source]
I’ve seen hundreds of extreme violence towards cops including death and worse. I’ve reported many and nothing happens. Some have many likes and retweets including by blue check marks. The justification of violence and racism towards a certain race and to cops is Alex Jones conspiracy level stupid. The bias is insane to any regular person
replies(1): >>23352146 #
49. Avicebron ◴[] No.23351638{3}[source]
Do you consider the tweet far-right violent rhetoric?
replies(1): >>23352779 #
50. pfkurtz ◴[] No.23351639[source]
Fascist language is generally constructed to externalize blame. That doesn't mean its calls for "peace measures" are not calls to harm those people. Trump has been inciting racist violence for years. Take your head out of the sand. Context matters.
51. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351640{3}[source]
> Deplatforming works.

Any evidence for that assertion?

replies(1): >>23351774 #
52. everdrive ◴[] No.23351645[source]
This raises an interesting point.

I think the realistic truth is that Trump doesn't really have a precise idea about what he's saying quite a bit of the time. His defenders rush in, and shape his words into their best possible light, and of course his opponents shape his words into their worst possible light.

Which version did Trump mean? Almost certainly neither: his modus operandi has been to say many vague things, and gauge the reaction to determine his next steps. Part of this process means simply speaking a LOT, and saying things that are vague and inflammatory. What better way to read a reaction than to ensure you create a reaction in the first place? In this sense, his words only have as much power as we keep giving them, and yet no one one seems to have learned this lesson.

You seem intelligent and well-spoken. I believe that when you say "looting always to leads shooting" you mean something like "when people are looting, it's unfortunately almost inevitable that there will be violence." (Please correct me if I've got you wrong.) When Trump says it, he doesn't tend to mean anything in particular. As usual, he's trying to drum up controversy.

And so, there's a difference in context between when you might say it, and when the president says it. It's not simply the case that I believe you hold a genuine belief, and that Trump is pressure testing his next controversy. It's also the case that you're a private citizen, willing to explain and qualify your claims, while Trump is the head of country, intentionally saying inflammatory things during difficult times.

[edit]

Apologies, I actually had no idea there was a particular history to the phrase "when looting starts, shooting starts"

replies(1): >>23351822 #
53. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351653{3}[source]
> Conservatives in the USA are not a good faith actor

None of them? They are ALL acting bad faith? Is that a good faith argument?

54. Avicebron ◴[] No.23351663{5}[source]
What exactly is happening and how can you really say that the reality is now fascist? It sounds like you've already made the both-side-ism implicitly yourself.
replies(1): >>23351770 #
55. pfkurtz ◴[] No.23351669[source]
This is correct.
56. ◴[] No.23351682{3}[source]
57. dmode ◴[] No.23351685[source]
Twitter has literally bend over backwards for Trump. They have said that they will not remove him not matter how much he violates their ToS. If even after that it is seen as "silencing their voice", you know it is a bad faith argument. Just the other day he retweeted something heinous about "dead Democrats" and Twitter let that tweet stand. At some point, don't you have to live up to some principles instead of always be scared of bad faith arguments ?
58. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351690{3}[source]
I read up on it's use in 1967. ...and it didn't really add anything. Looting leads to police/national guard having to restore order through violence.

There's no hidden meaning here.

replies(1): >>23352492 #
59. gnopgnip ◴[] No.23351693{3}[source]
There is no requirement under section 230 to moderate content in good faith. Selective moderation does not affect their liability. This law was passed democratically, for exactly this purpose.

>"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." This federal law preempts any state laws to the contrary: "[n]o cause of action may be brought and no liability may be imposed under any State or local law that is inconsistent with this section."

replies(1): >>23351901 #
60. goldenManatee ◴[] No.23351712[source]
I imagine other factors have to do with the technicalities of executing on this, and the user’s visibility and “viral-ity”. On the technical, you can automate the job and have awkward success sometimes if you don’t get a human to intervene and verify what the algo’s flag as potential violation tweets. Now considering the user, the user’s number of followers, whether they are public figures (so because elected, celebrity, activist, etc. reasons) or whether the tweet has gone viral (regardless of the user’s pre-existing popularity). These kinds of things influence because someone with visibility and audience making calls to violence or some other questionable act is distinct in how actionable others around the world are to react to such a figure making questionable statements. So it’s not a matter of policing everyone, because there’s a lot of nuance and challenges. And the answer isn’t to give up because that’s just cowardice in the face of a big social challenge. We’ve got to carefully experiment and wisely assess these cases.
61. dnissley ◴[] No.23351714{4}[source]
By pretty much every definition it is violence.
62. sagichmal ◴[] No.23351729[source]
> If Twitter is going to police people, it needs to be across the board. Otherwise it's just a weird censorship that is targeting one person and can easily be seen as political.

There is no such requirement.

Twitter is well within its rights and ethically totally clear to "police" a sentiment from the President of the United States, while letting much more severe sentiments from egg accounts go un-policed.

Moderation isn't an algorithm, a binary condition, applied perfectly to an input set to get a deterministic output. It's subjective, and that's both OK and correct.

replies(1): >>23357046 #
63. rhegart ◴[] No.23351731{3}[source]
I say with great confidence that Trump is too stupid to know this. Maybe Stephen Miller his far right aide did and pushed the line as a dog whistle but tbh I never heard of it either till now.
64. dmode ◴[] No.23351736{3}[source]
Selective enforcement happens everywhere in the internet. For example if you go to T_D in Reddit, they will absolutely delete any anti-Trump posts. Does this mean Reddit is influencing elections ?
replies(1): >>23352515 #
65. Avicebron ◴[] No.23351753{4}[source]
This is not quite true, losing property can cause real material harm to someone. If my house burns down and I'm on the streets, there is a real chance of harm to my person. Also now apparently words can be violence and cause the cancellation of someone..pretty sure it's all up for grabs now.
66. wmkn ◴[] No.23351754{4}[source]
Fair point. ‘Looting inevitably leads to innocent people getting shot’ is probably not what Trump meant.
replies(1): >>23351869 #
67. gbanfalvi ◴[] No.23351759[source]
Do you believe it’s more dangerous to: A: Remove a post encouraging violence with the risk it’ll anger a group of people? Or... B: Keep it and let it reach 80 million followers?

There’s plenty of evidence that many sites (twitter included) allow violent speech from specific groups because they’re worried of the political backlash. These groups still complain about being silenced just the same, despite blatantly violating the TOS.

It doesn’t work. You’re just giving dangerous and violent people a platform to organize, encourage and enable violence. As a platform owner, you can’t just hope they’ll behave if you treat them nicely.

68. ◴[] No.23351763[source]
69. pnako ◴[] No.23351774{4}[source]
Yeah, I'm not sure how "deplatforming" the US President is even going to work...
replies(1): >>23353662 #
70. Jestar342 ◴[] No.23351776[source]
Erm, what? This is just not true, and is a false dichotomy. Moderation is hard. Always has been. Stuff will slip through the cracks.

POTUS has the most popular (and currently most controversial - note, that's _controversial_ not _extreme_ or some other morph) so it's easy to see why Twitter are on top of it. Other blue-checked accounts, whilst more "important" than unverified, just simply don't compare to the importance and prevalance of POTUS' account.

replies(2): >>23352276 #>>23355018 #
71. jrockway ◴[] No.23351779{5}[source]
If you read the replies to Trump's tweet on Twitter, half of them are whining about Kathy Griffin. She's their favorite example of how Twitter has a liberal bias today. Maybe you coincidentally picked the same example as them.
replies(1): >>23351864 #
72. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.23351791{4}[source]
To be fair, the judges asked to resign (really retire) are conservatives. It's the same reason Ginsburg hasn't retired despite her health issues -- everything to do with which party would be nominating her replacement.

The next time the Democrats control the Senate and the Republicans the whitehouse, I wouldn't expect them be interested in confirming any judges right before a Presidential election either.

replies(1): >>23351917 #
73. ta1234567890 ◴[] No.23351793[source]
You are technically correct, however the same logic applies to every type of enforcement.

Ideally the enforcement of every rule should apply to everyone equally, but in practice we see the police behave differently towards different people, we see tax audits and penalties applied mostly to people without the means to defend themselves and we see how apparently the law and government rules don't even apply to Trump. The world still goes on and we somehow deal with all of this.

Twitter enforcing their own rules is just going to be more of the same.

74. ◴[] No.23351798{6}[source]
75. vharuck ◴[] No.23351806{3}[source]
>The people being censored here can't even themselves go to any alternative platform, because there's really no other platform at that scale for that content format.

What about setting up a blog on whitehouse.com? Most normal people can't get the same audience, but Trump's not normal.

>If they only selective moderate accounts, then that protection may not survive in court.

Even assuming there was a service moderating by purely political guidelines, I don't see how 230 would stop applying. Otherwise, a lot of websites will be screwed. For instance, any website run by a political party that allows comments.

>that's a bigger problem, because it gives Twitter the power to shape global communications unilaterally. Something no corporation should have the power to do.

The solution to a monopoly abusing its power isn't to write piecemeal law curtailing things as they come up. The solution is to get rid of the monopoly (breaking it up, making it so competitors join the market, etc).

But this order isn't about monopolies. It's a party plank and rallying cry.

76. misiti3780 ◴[] No.23351811{4}[source]
agreed, im not saying this is equal to trump, but i don't think anyone here downvoting me would want to be doxed by someone with 2.1 million followers, regardless of if she is a comedian or not.
77. jtbayly ◴[] No.23351822{3}[source]
You may be right.

My only nit with what you said is with this: "when people are looting, it's unfortunately almost inevitable that there will be violence."

I would say that looting is violence. I would further add three things. 1. that self defense is justified when violence against your person and property is committed. 2. Even more importantly, it is the job of the police to stop these violent crimes, at gunpoint if necessary. 3. Even more tellingly, if anybody here's livelihood or home was getting looted that person would be calling the police to do their job.

78. sagichmal ◴[] No.23351828{3}[source]
> The issue is that the rules are being enforced selectively.

It's not only acceptable but actually ethically correct to hold those with more power to higher standards of responsibility.

It's therefore not only acceptable but actually ethically correct to enforce these rules more proactively against the President of the United States than some Russian bot account.

replies(2): >>23352597 #>>23355220 #
79. NikolaeVarius ◴[] No.23351835{4}[source]
It literally is part of the definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence
replies(1): >>23352413 #
80. ◴[] No.23351854[source]
81. Nasrudith ◴[] No.23351862{4}[source]
I am pretty sure you would disagree if someone started smashing your front door or car. It is at best technically true in a deeply misleading way like calling a surgeon "a professional cutter and organ remover from the helpless".
replies(1): >>23351982 #
82. misiti3780 ◴[] No.23351864{6}[source]
I listen to both sides, and I don't pay attention to what people say on twitter too much (it's the not "real" world). again, I'm not saying this tweet is equal to what trump said, it's clearly not --- But if someone had harmed or killed one of these kids because of this dox, I'm not sure your objections would stand. And with 2.1M followers, that is in realm of possibilities

Do you think twitter has a liberal bias?

replies(1): >>23352709 #
83. jtbayly ◴[] No.23351869{5}[source]
Looting will and must lead to the police taking action to do their most basic job—protecting the life and property of the people. This means almost certainly people will be shot, some guilty, some innocent.
replies(2): >>23352036 #>>23353287 #
84. riffic ◴[] No.23351887[source]
> I have seen tweets from blue check marks essentially calling for violence and Twitter didn't remove them

Moderation, at scale, is a very tough problem to solve.

85. tzs ◴[] No.23351889{4}[source]
> And Senate Republicans have openly asked judges to resign so they can be replaced by conservative judges, and their justification for why it's okay to do this so close to an election but it wasn't okay to confirm Garland so close to an election literally amounts to "Obama's a Democrat, Trump's a Republican."

It's worse than that. There were at least three high ranking Republican Senators who said that if Clinton won the election, they would go her entire 4 (or 8) years without confirming any Supreme Court nominees, keeping any vacant seats open until there was a Republican President again to fill them.

replies(1): >>23352513 #
86. koheripbal ◴[] No.23351901{4}[source]
It's literally written into the law in section 230 (c)(2)(A)...

> No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of — any action voluntarily taken in __good faith__ to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected

...and that specific requirement has been specifically referenced in Trump's recent executive order.

replies(2): >>23351990 #>>23354650 #
87. praestigiare ◴[] No.23351903{5}[source]
Because, while this is not true of individual republicans, republican party media strategy has been based on positional ethics for a long time. Free speech is good when it is our free speech. Executive orders are bad when they are your executive orders.
replies(1): >>23352067 #
88. lukaa ◴[] No.23351908{4}[source]
''But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people.'' You know, he is president, that gives him right to use or threaten with violence if he thinks that safety of country is seriously in danger. If you think that he is breaking constitution there is court to decide about that.
replies(1): >>23352366 #
89. ghshephard ◴[] No.23351917{5}[source]
Or ever, really. What incentive is there for a party in opposition to ever confirm the opposing party's choice for the Supreme Court.
replies(1): >>23352045 #
90. quantummkv ◴[] No.23351919{4}[source]
> It’s not like Twitter is tax-exempt which would prohibit it from endorsing candidates like Churches.

Twitter is not tax-exempt but is certainly lawsuit-exempt to a large degree. The entire reason twitter has not be sued into oblivion for the actions of it's users is because of the protections Section 230[1] grants them.

But here is the pinch. Section 230 protection applies only as long as you act as platforms for 3rd party speech. But when they start plastering "Vote for X" banners on their websites of their own violations, they go from being platforms for 3rd party speech to 1st party publishers. That effectively removes the Section 230 protections twitter enjoys.

I much as I hate to say it, Trump might be right this once. Twitter has stopped being a neutral platform enforcing consistent policies for quite some time now.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicati...

replies(2): >>23352354 #>>23352481 #
91. jds375 ◴[] No.23351928[source]
I think many people aren't taking into account the visibility of Trump's twitter. Trump making violence-glorifying or factually incorrect or medically dangerous tweets is far different from other twitter user's or even other blue-check-mark users because his reach is far wider than the vast majority of those users. Further, Trump has an established track record of doing this repeatedly. Those two facts establish a clear and rational basis for targeting his tweets specifically.

Completely agree with your second point though (not that there is any collusion to silence conservatives - but that this whole situation will be taken that way and used to energize that base).

replies(2): >>23352766 #>>23353395 #
92. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.23351965[source]
Even better, directly link the research on the topic, from both sides. Instead of drawing a conclusion on behalf of everybody, give people what they need to draw their own.
replies(1): >>23352653 #
93. ◴[] No.23351966{3}[source]
94. jasondigitized ◴[] No.23351975[source]
Other people will perceive it as glorifying and advocating violence regardless of how you or I see it. You can rightfully be horrified but it doesn't change the fact that this tweet arguably increases the probability of more violence happening. There is at least one person that read this tweet and interpreted it as a call to violence and that is the problem. Words matter and should be used carefully.
95. charwalker ◴[] No.23351978[source]
Unless the content is called out for inaccuracy, bigotry, etc the user may not even be aware of the issue they create. Like if someone retweets a claim they believe but it is flagged as misleading and fact checked that might be the first time their views were checked and they might recognize their beliefs are wrong and rethink things. But they often won't and I think that is as much part of the problem. Trump won't rethink his position because a tweet was fact checked, he will attack the fact checker and supporters will do the same thanks to his example. There is no self reflection or awareness when called out and the poster becomes defensive, refusing to accept their comment as fake news or bigotry.

If conservatives feel they are being silenced but cannot recognize that the views 'censored' are often bigoted, racist, or simply unpopular or abhorrent outside their bubble, then what do you to? If you call out blatant racism you are less likely to find the user recognize their racism, apologize, and not use such language again and more likely to be called a snowflake and have that behavior turned up a notch. If the original comment is then downvoted by the community or removed by mods then it will enforce that persons view that they are being attacked. This is incredibly common on Reddit where users often include a 'bring on the downvotes' type edit after stating something intolerant or clearly false.

The solution is not to allow these views and opinions to sit unchecked but to recognize a modern civil society must be intolerant of intolerance and moderate appropriately. Downvote and report racist comments. Apply fact checking to statements, even those you believe or feel to be true as that is a sign of bias. If the user doubles down, move on as there is no value in arguing with someone putting their feelings and beliefs/bias above facts and reality. Perhaps when society or their online community turns their back on their comments they will finally have the time to reflect on why and recognize their behavior was unwarranted and unwanted.

96. vharuck ◴[] No.23351981{3}[source]
A Chinese official, for one

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/28/technology/trump-twitter-...

97. augustt ◴[] No.23351982{5}[source]
I wouldn't be too happy, but to me violence is damaging a living thing. Not property.
replies(2): >>23352152 #>>23352171 #
98. ohmaigad ◴[] No.23351990{5}[source]
It reads like the specific action taken must be in "good faith" and has nothing to do with selective enforcement. The "Fact check" label also shouldn't fall under "restrict" or "availability".
replies(1): >>23352488 #
99. Miner49er ◴[] No.23351999{3}[source]
"Violence" against property doesn't really compare to killing people, IMO.

I don't really even think property damage should be included in the definition of "violence" and maybe Twitter agrees with me.

She also didn't say what to burn down. Trump was very clear that looters are who he wanted shot. Burn it down is a common saying that can mean anything from literally burning stuff to just tearing down a system in order to rebuild.

replies(1): >>23352435 #
100. NateEag ◴[] No.23352013{3}[source]
I'm a United States citizen.

I'm not a pure conservative, but I expect I hold several views you'd find repugnant and label as "conservative". For instance, I am strongly pro-life. Another one: I believe deeply in the existence of God (and other supernatural beings).

I am, therefore, a bad-faith actor, if I'm following right?

replies(1): >>23352064 #
101. fulldecent2 ◴[] No.23352027[source]
China is the leader here, let's briefly study how they do social media -- this will show where US is going.

They review everything after an account gets so many likes. The platform is responsible. One day I was doing something dangerous on a live stream -- immediately banned for 48 hours and got a human message. Posts with factual errors about current events -- immediately removed, on pain of platform liability. Human reply. No AI.

The platform is liable for what is published on the platform in the same way a newspaper is liable for what is published in the newspaper.

The liability is changing and so yes Twitter is going to police people.

I welcome this change in liability.

replies(1): >>23353557 #
102. wmkn ◴[] No.23352036{6}[source]
Shooting should not be the starting point of law enforcement. Shooting should be a last resort. Implying that looting indiscriminately means shooting is a call to violence.
replies(1): >>23352466 #
103. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.23352045{6}[source]
In past times there was a thing called compromise. Not very familiar anymore, I know. Instead of leaving a seat empty for the next ten years until the same party controls the Senate and the whitehouse (and not knowing ahead of time whether it'll be yours or not), the President can nominate a moderate which the opposition party Senate might confirm for the same reason. Better a moderate now than the other guy's candidate later.

But when you're looking at electoral math that says you're about to have even odds of taking the whitehouse and probably won't lose the Senate, that doesn't really apply.

replies(1): >>23355524 #
104. luckydata ◴[] No.23352064{4}[source]
no, you're not following, but I suspect you're doing it on purpose and that was my point.

edit: let me add a proof point from something that matters to you. https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2020/05/21/a...

Conservatives in this country believe in "small government", "individual freedoms" and "separation between church and state" until a large slice of their electorate turns out to be religious fundamentalists, then they start mandating transvaginal ultrasounds in order to get an abortion etc...

Does that sound like intellectual honesty or good faith?

replies(1): >>23353828 #
105. ocdtrekkie ◴[] No.23352067{6}[source]
Both parties do this. For instance, Republicans are generally the party of "states' rights", but Democrats are jumping up and down about how the federal government shouldn't overrule the rights of liberal states now. Things like the fighting the FCC trying to prohibit states from making their own net neutrality rules, or legalizing marijuana, which is still technically illegal nationwide according to the federal government.

Generally, if you run the federal government, you don't want states objecting to your agenda. And if the opposition is running the federal government, you insist on your right to do things at the state level.

Watching Democrats and Republicans make the exact same arguments depending on whose in power is absolutely hilarious, and it leads to great soundbites, like those of Trump and McConnell talking about what the President should and shouldn't do... depending who the President is.

replies(3): >>23352410 #>>23352552 #>>23352777 #
106. moosey ◴[] No.23352071{4}[source]
> Politics is a team based sport.

That's optional though. The modern media, in the interest of money, has done a good job of causing the population of the US to miscategorize themselves into D/R. If it instead focused on human welfare, then we wouldn't be in this mess.

replies(1): >>23354275 #
107. beowulfey ◴[] No.23352127{3}[source]
This is absurd. Twitter is a corporation and can choose to present their product as they see fit. And nothing about them is essential. Twitter could go bankrupt and the world would not hurt at all. There are absolutely plenty of ways to disseminate information.

Twitter only has about 150 million daily active users. That's 1/3 of the population of the USA. There is no way in hell Twitter could ever be considered a monopoly when less than 2% of the world's population even uses their platform actively.

108. Nasrudith ◴[] No.23352152{6}[source]
There is an implied threat and cohersion to it of "do it or else" or "I can break you too". That is the violence against the person. Smashing your own car in front of somebody's house wouldn't include that threat as it is their property to what they wish although it would make you look crazy.
109. NikolaeVarius ◴[] No.23352171{6}[source]
I have a cane that I need to use to walk. Somebody breaks my cane. What is that?
replies(3): >>23352450 #>>23352717 #>>23356251 #
110. jpadkins ◴[] No.23352201[source]
> essentially calling for violence

Ironic that a microblogging service leads to lack of nuance. who would of thought?

My first read of trump's tweet was explaining the national guard has to move in because 'looting leads to shooting'. As in, we have to restore order to avoid more people getting shot. At the time Trump tweeted this, there was already one death from a pawn store owner shooting a looter.

So depending on your priors, your PoV, Trump was either promoting violence or trying to quell violence.

culture of 140 characters = more confusion, more division, more tribalism. If we valued well written, long form writing from our leaders we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, we value twitter and leaders who make great slogans and can push people's buttons in 140 characters.

replies(1): >>23352367 #
111. efitz ◴[] No.23352276[source]
If most of the mistakes happen in one direction, then I would argue that there's some other mechanism at work than just "mistakes".

Update: data https://quillette.com/2019/02/12/it-isnt-your-imagination-tw...

Update: admission https://www.vox.com/2018/9/14/17857622/twitter-liberal-emplo...

replies(6): >>23352374 #>>23352668 #>>23352716 #>>23352797 #>>23353381 #>>23355255 #
112. dunkelheit ◴[] No.23352352{4}[source]
> It's been a couple of hours

She posted that tweet more like 11 hours ago. Since that time it has become somewhat infamous - I've seen it in my deliberately not-politicized timeline and separately here on HN. What is the chance their content moderation team hasn't seen it?

113. vel0city ◴[] No.23352354{5}[source]
Where is the requirement for neutrality in Section 230?
114. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23352366{5}[source]
> ''But it's a lot less violent than ordering the military to shoot people.'' You know, he is president, that gives him right to use or threaten with violence if he thinks that safety of country is seriously in danger. If you think that he is breaking constitution there is court to decide about that.

That's actually not true. There are legal bounds to what violence he can and cannot threaten. The President is not a dictator, in which case you would be correct. And we don't have to wait for a court to decide that the order is illegal. Members of the military are actually supposed to refuse illegal orders, not obey them blindly like good little Nazis.

replies(1): >>23352800 #
115. apcragg ◴[] No.23352367[source]
Don't be so disingenuous. The phrase is famous and it obviously is obviously not intent on trying to quell violence. I know to be contrarian and radically 'rational' is popular among tech types but it doesn't mean you have to bury your head in the sand when what is being said is so clear.
replies(2): >>23352499 #>>23379612 #
116. gameswithgo ◴[] No.23352374{3}[source]
Maybe conservative america needs to appeal to people smart enough to start their own tech companies, so they can compete in the free market to do things the way they like.
replies(5): >>23352676 #>>23352936 #>>23353084 #>>23353151 #>>23353722 #
117. rayiner ◴[] No.23352388[source]
Seriously. Twitter and Facebook are full of liberals talking about "bringing back the guillotine" but I don't see any of that getting censored.
replies(4): >>23352615 #>>23352756 #>>23352786 #>>23355322 #
118. jakelazaroff ◴[] No.23352410{7}[source]
Conservative support of "states' rights" has always been a dog whistle for restricting civil liberties.

Civil Rights Act? States' rights issue. Same–sex marriage? Let the states decide. Abortion? States should be free to ban.

Edit: swapped "Republican" with "Conservative", since the parties' ideologies have shifted over time.

replies(1): >>23352710 #
119. adrianmonk ◴[] No.23352413{5}[source]
In this case, doesn't Twitter's definition of violence matter more than the dictionary's definition? Here it is:

> Glorification of violence policy

...

> You may not threaten violence against an individual or a group of people. We also prohibit the glorification of violence.

(https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/glorification...)

replies(1): >>23352687 #
120. Notorious_BLT ◴[] No.23352434{4}[source]
By the same argument, Google could exclude a political candidate from their search results entirely, or bolster a fabricated news story claiming the candidate was a child-molsting satanist to the top of their results. Would you also consider that acceptable?

These companies have become, for many, infrastructural. For these companies (who also sell advertising) to take these kinds of actions would essentially be them bypassing campaign finance rules to give MASSIVE contributions of free advertising to candidates. I think its fair to argue that that would be unacceptable interference.

replies(1): >>23354536 #
121. rayiner ◴[] No.23352435{4}[source]
> "Violence" against property doesn't really compare to killing people, IMO.

That's the kind of thing that results in the insidious left-wing bias of sites like Twitter. Moderators who don't believe that property damage is a blatant violation of peoples' rights, but do believe peoples' rights are violated by mere words alone, and moderating in accordance with such views.

replies(3): >>23352547 #>>23353361 #>>23354129 #
122. Rychard ◴[] No.23352450{7}[source]
Such a scenario would be unfortunate. The lack of context makes it impossible to determine with any certainty.
123. jtbayly ◴[] No.23352466{7}[source]
He never said it was the first resort, or that shooting should or will be indiscriminate. I'm done here. You're not arguing. You're simply begging the question.
replies(1): >>23353079 #
124. tzs ◴[] No.23352481{5}[source]
> But here is the pinch. Section 230 protection applies only as long as you act as platforms for 3rd party speech. But when they start plastering "Vote for X" banners on their websites of their own violations, they go from being platforms for 3rd party speech to 1st party publishers. That effectively removes the Section 230 protections twitter enjoys.

That's not at all how section 230 works. Section 230 protections. Section 230 provides protection from liability over what their users post. Whatever content they have of their own on their site is completely out of scope as far as section 230 goes.

125. rayiner ◴[] No.23352488{6}[source]
I struggle to see how a policy of selective enforcement can be deemed to be taken in "good faith." If you only enforce speed limits against a disadvantaged minority group, are those individual enforcement actions made "in good faith" (even if each person was actually speeding?)
126. thethethethe ◴[] No.23352492{4}[source]
It was used by a racist police chief in reference to black protesters during the _civil rights movement_, which I think we can all agree is on the right side of history. The parallels are pretty clear to me, I’m not sure what you are missing here
replies(1): >>23352698 #
127. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352497{4}[source]
I voted for both but for different reasons.
128. AnimalMuppet ◴[] No.23352499{3}[source]
"The phrase is famous"? I don't recall ever hearing it before. Could you stop assuming that we all know what it is intended to mean, and that we are therefore burying our heads in the sand, and actually explain what you think it means and why it means that?

[Edit: Reading further down the discussion gives some context. That's... disturbing. Still, you are also assuming bad faith on the part of others, and that's not how things are supposed to be done on HN.]

129. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352513{5}[source]
As distasteful and unprofessional as it is, it is their right. If the Senate, and its Senators, for whatever reason decide not to act, there's nothing the President can do. It's distasteful, but it's neither illegal nor out of character.
130. adrianmonk ◴[] No.23352515{4}[source]
Opinions that particular subreddit and its moderators aside, that's not really about a site enforcing a policy selectively. Moderators are usually volunteers, and as far as I know, Reddit doesn't have a policy saying they should be neutral. As long as they do stuff that is within the bounds of Reddit's policies, moderators can be pretty arbitrary or capricious.
replies(1): >>23352751 #
131. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352523[source]
Would the same happen if Theil owned Twitter, and fact checked, etc. Joe Biden? IMO we would see the opposite, and liberal politicians calling for Twitter to be taken down. One person's soap box is another's tabloid.
replies(2): >>23352592 #>>23353179 #
132. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352547{5}[source]
Property damage is absolutely a violation of people's rights, which is why property was added to the constitution. Outrage does not negate a business owners rights.
133. ascagnel_ ◴[] No.23352549{4}[source]
> I've discussed some of this stuff with him: in his eyes, Obama did stuff he shouldn't have, so Trump can do stuff he shouldn't.

This is a terrible line of thinking. I'm no Trump fan, but there's a ton of things neither Trump nor Obama should have done as president, and excusing one with the actions of another doesn't make a bad act good.

replies(1): >>23355390 #
134. czzr ◴[] No.23352552{7}[source]
I don’t believe the Democratic Party has ever advocated that states should have no rights, so I don’t see how your argument makes any sense. Of course in a specific instance they could advocate for states rights.

It is also perfectly fair on the Republican side.

135. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352587{5}[source]
Let's compare that to "when the looting starts the shooting begins".

Which is an observation, and which is a directive? I think that is the key question that Twitter is dodging. They want to editorialize with their opinion as to which is which, but not for everyone.

replies(1): >>23352843 #
136. phailhaus ◴[] No.23352592{3}[source]
Do you have any examples of liberal politicians calling for social media platforms to be taken down for fact checking or enforcing their terms of service? Simply saying "in my opinion they'd do the same thing" is not convincing.
replies(1): >>23352706 #
137. 12elephant ◴[] No.23352597{4}[source]
There is no objective "ethically correct" anything.

You'll say one thing is "ethically correct", and someone else will say the exact opposite thing is "ethically correct".

Neither of you is right, and neither of you is wrong.

replies(2): >>23352951 #>>23353880 #
138. harryh ◴[] No.23352615[source]
I'm pretty conflicted on this issue overall, but I don't think it's entirely nuts to hold the President of the US to a higher standard than many other accounts.
139. 12elephant ◴[] No.23352653{3}[source]
That's what already happens. Look at the comments on any prominent person's tweet and you'll see people going back and forth about what's right and what's false.

No one needs to do anything here. People can research and find stuff out for themselves, and come to their own conclusions.

replies(1): >>23354723 #
140. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352656{4}[source]
Which is violence: Doxing, or using the information to call in a swat team? If the swatting occured, it was the Doxing which directly led to it. It's a loaded gun.
141. dang ◴[] No.23352667{7}[source]
Would you please stop breaking the HN guidelines with ideological flamewar and personal attacks? It's not what this site is for, you do it all the time, and we've warned you several times over several years. In fact I'm surprised we haven't banned you yet, and if you keep this up we will.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

142. BryantD ◴[] No.23352668{3}[source]
The link you've characterized as an admission discusses internal bias, and doesn't say anything about bias in moderating.
replies(1): >>23353672 #
143. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23352676{4}[source]
Maybe companies should be idelogical neutral instead? Or do you also think liberal America should start to appeal to conscientious and patriotical people so they can have their own armed forces and police?
replies(6): >>23352783 #>>23352838 #>>23352851 #>>23352864 #>>23353004 #>>23353085 #
144. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352687{6}[source]
What if a person said it as opinion: Looting has the potential to initiate shootings. Are we looking at an opinion, an observation, or glorying violence.
replies(2): >>23353849 #>>23363834 #
145. will4274 ◴[] No.23352698{5}[source]
The fact that the police chief was racist doesn't make him wrong. He can be both racist and correct that looting generally leads to shooting.
replies(1): >>23353376 #
146. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352706{4}[source]
I'm not trying to convince you. I'm stating my opinion which you happen to disagree with. There are no liberal politicians that I can find calling for fact checking because, for now, Twitter is working in their favor.
replies(1): >>23352879 #
147. rayiner ◴[] No.23352710{8}[source]
> Civil Rights Act? States' rights issue.

Every law called "the Civil Rights Act" passed with overwhelming Republican support. All but one passed with more Republican support than Democratic support. The landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964 received 80% of the republican vote in the house, but only 61% of the democratic vote.

replies(4): >>23353157 #>>23353158 #>>23353288 #>>23353342 #
148. enumjorge ◴[] No.23352716{3}[source]
I’m not convinced by the arguments from your first link. As stated by the article itself, a difference in the number of left-leaning vs right-leaning bans does not prove the standards for censorship are different depending on what side of the political spectrum you fall on. It could be that conservative content violates rules more frequently than liberal or centrist content.

It goes on to say this can’t be possible because it would mean that conservative content would have to violate rules at 4x the rate of others, and that statistically its highly improbable. Why? It’s a known problem that Twitter has a lot of accounts that are fake accounts from bad actors trying to sow discord in the US political system, and those tend to be right leaning. Didn’t Twitter relatively recently do a purge of a large number of accounts that were deemed fake? That could easily skew the numbers, especially because those accounts tend to engage in the kind of rhetoric that gets you banned.

And then the article points to cases where liberal leaning content doesn’t get banned even though it should. I can also find cases where conservative content violates the rules yet it didn’t face consequences, most prominently the president’s account. It’s not just liberals who get a free pass, so I’m not sure what that proves.

Is it possible there is a bias in how Twitter sensors content? Sure. But that article makes it sound like they have a data driven, mathematically rigorous proof that it’s true, and I don’t think they meet that mark.

149. vkou ◴[] No.23352717{7}[source]
It's something similar to buying up the rights for, and increasing the price of a life-necessarry drug by 2000%. Is that also violence?
replies(1): >>23352927 #
150. dang ◴[] No.23352736{3}[source]
Personal attacks will get you banned here. No more of this on HN, please.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

151. vkou ◴[] No.23352751{5}[source]
Has Twitter committed to two sidism neutrality, or has it, like reddit, made no statement about their political affiliation?

If it hasn't, does this mean they are free to ban every conservative viewpoint from their platform, like T_D does for liberal ones? If not, why are we letting T_D behave in such a way?

replies(1): >>23353280 #
152. matwood ◴[] No.23352756[source]
When someone is high profile they will be treated differently. That's just the nature of being high profile. Trump has said a lot of things that would have gotten you or I banned if Twitter noticed. Twitter let Trump slide for a long time, and is finally moderating some of the most egregious examples.

And to be clear, anyone calling for violence should also have similar actions taken against them. But, me shouting get out the guillotine to my 10 followers is different than POTUS saying the same thing.

153. 12elephant ◴[] No.23352766[source]
There is video of Twitter employees admitting there are on-going efforts to silence "shitty people" on the platform. It's quite clear who these "deplorables" or "shitty people" are.

What is the most annoying about this, though, is the tweet they chose to "Fact Check". (I use quotation marks because "fact checking" by linking to CNN and WaPo is not fact-checking at all, rather an appeal to a different authority.)

The tweet they chose to police is speculation about the future. If I say the boiling point of water is 50 degrees, you can fact-check that. Its an objective truth that water boils at 100c.

If I say mail-in votes will cause election fraud, you cannot prove or disprove that statement. All you can do is show me someone else's statements, opinions, and predictions on the matter.

Given that Trump says so much objectively false stuff, it annoys me they didn't go after one of those tweets instead.

You catch the most flak when you're over the target...

replies(1): >>23352896 #
154. gknoy ◴[] No.23352779{4}[source]
When the president says "we will take over", and that "the shooting will start", that seems (to me) to be fairly authoritarian (right-leaning) rhetoric.

Our laws explicitly forbid the national military "taking over" in such situations -- the national guard (state military) is who is supposed to be deployed.

replies(1): >>23353038 #
155. techntoke ◴[] No.23352783{5}[source]
Ideological neutral by whose standards? If conservatives tend to violate TOS more frequently and get blocked/banned, then that is neutral. They are simply enforcing their TOS based on the content.
replies(1): >>23353788 #
156. originalvichy ◴[] No.23352786[source]
Be completely honest to a stranger:

When you see content like you are talking about, do you report it using the websites’ tools? Please be honest.

replies(1): >>23353311 #
157. mthoms ◴[] No.23352797{3}[source]
Maybe right leaning users have a higher propensity to say offensive/harmful things?

I'm not being facetious. Isn't this something the right is actually proud of? I mean, they actually boast about not being "politically correct" (something the rest of the western world calls "common decency").

replies(3): >>23352900 #>>23353682 #>>23355174 #
158. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352822[source]
Only so much as the media and government lets twitter have this within their rights. If it was Peter Theil running Twitter, I don't believe we would see the same reaction from the media.
159. Simulacra ◴[] No.23352838{5}[source]
Companies cannot be neutral. They have a base just like any politician. Twitter has acutely recognized - I believe - that their base is libera, and it's important to go along with that base. Would Twitter be as popular if a conservative was running it?
replies(1): >>23353717 #
160. techntoke ◴[] No.23352843{6}[source]
Hacker News frequently threatens censorship, prevents users from responding for several hours, etc. Do you think they should have that right since it is their platform?
161. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23352851{5}[source]
Why should they be neutral and how would you enforce that? What does "ideological neutral" even mean?
replies(1): >>23353340 #
162. vmh1928 ◴[] No.23352854[source]
There's also the question of who it is that is predicting violence (or giving a dog whistle signal to his followers that violence is OK.) This is not a blue check mark living in his mom's basement predicting (or asking) for violence, it's the chief executive of the United States.
163. woah ◴[] No.23352864{5}[source]
Maybe companies should be allowed to do whatever they want on their own websites
164. techntoke ◴[] No.23352879{5}[source]
Liberal politicians would be smart enough to call for decentralized syndicated social media solutions. Democrats aren't a party that needs constant media attention in order to polarize America.
165. gknoy ◴[] No.23352896{3}[source]
> If I say mail-in votes will cause election fraud, you cannot prove or disprove that statement

I'm not sure I believe that claim. I think that looking at past history of voting fraud shows pretty conclusively that _vote by mail_ fraud has always been a very low percentage.

Sure, it's possible that _some_ fraud might happen, but looking at data from Oregon, it's happened two times in twenty years (_from my reading of the conservative database that was linked somewhere yesterday -- sorry :) -- I might be off by an order of magnitude, but it's still small_). That seems like an _extremely_ low incidence rate, and seems a small price to may for the idea that maybe more people will be likely to vote, due to not having to stand in line at polling places, deal with vote suppression efforts, or even just because it's more convenient to fill it out on your own schedule ahead of time.

Now, many will say that states like CA and other large states, who haven't had a large-scale rollout of vote-by-mail with the history and planning that Oregon had, will face more fraud than Oregon did. I think that's actually a very believable point -- we are not going to have a perfect rollout. However, I'd also like to point out that we've had two decades of electronic voting machines that have been proven to be absolutely insecure, as well as numerous cases in other states of voters who have been unable to vote because their polling places were under-staffed or closed too early.

Voting by mail is a proven method that scales well to ensure that larger portions of the populace have the opportunity to vote. It's being considered in light of wanting to limit in-person gatherings. It very unlikely that it's some conspiracy to promote fraud.

replies(1): >>23353131 #
166. ThomPete ◴[] No.23352900{4}[source]
You base that on what exactly?
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167. wtetzner ◴[] No.23352927{8}[source]
I can see an argument that it is.
168. ThomPete ◴[] No.23352936{4}[source]
That's not really the point. Regardless of your political view the issue is the same.

If you want to be editorializing people's content then you are a publisher and then you are responsible for the content they write.

The point of social media is that each person is their own publisher and own their own words.

Oterwhise lets just regulate Twitter and FB and Youtube like a publisher and lets see them handle the lawsuits.

replies(1): >>23355374 #
169. mthoms ◴[] No.23352951{5}[source]
Given limited resources, you don't think it's undeniably "ethically correct" to direct those resources where they are more effective?
replies(1): >>23353052 #
170. giarc ◴[] No.23352953[source]
I think you also have to know if the tweet was reported. Obiviously twitter isn't going to read all tweets so only ones that are reported can they act upon.
171. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23352954{7}[source]
> Unfortunately, what you are saying lead to anarchy.

That is a big, and unjustified, leap. Can you explain this assertion?

> You just said that we live in democracy.

I didn't say that, though it is a statement I'd agree with.

> In democracy disputes are settled in court.

This is not actually required to be a democracy. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Many things are already settled, either in law, the constitution, treaties, or, yes, court decisions, but do not require further court decisions. One of those is this: Military members are not obligated to follow illegal orders, and can actually be held accountable for failure to disobey.

replies(1): >>23353174 #
172. bjustin ◴[] No.23353004{5}[source]
Companies have some of the same rights as people. Why should we expect companies to be neutral when we don't expect people to be neutral? Governments must be neutral, including armed forces and police, but even then neutrality doesn't mean letting one group break rules (laws in the case of government) with impunity just because they're the ones who most frequently break those rules.
replies(1): >>23353549 #
173. xrd ◴[] No.23353033{5}[source]
The Quillette article posted as evidence above says exactly that:

"Perhaps conservatives are simply more likely to violate neutral rules regarding harassment and hate speech. In such case, the observed data would not serve to impugn Twitter, but rather conservatives themselves."

174. woobar ◴[] No.23353038{5}[source]
Wikipedia says: "In 2006, Congress passed the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act, which gave the president the authority to mobilize National Guard units within the U.S. without the consent of state governors."
175. 12elephant ◴[] No.23353052{6}[source]
It doesn't matter what I think. My point is that ethics are subjective, not objective.
replies(1): >>23353146 #
176. mthoms ◴[] No.23353079{8}[source]
His words directly connected the <act of looting> with the <act of shooting>. There is no other way to interpret it.

If he meant something more measured, he should have said something more measured.

177. thejynxed ◴[] No.23353084{4}[source]
You mean people like Ellison and Thiel?
178. FireBeyond ◴[] No.23353085{5}[source]
You can't rule that 'corporations are people' when it suits you, and can donate to political campaigns...

... and then say "no, they need to be ideologically neutral" when they act in ways you dislike.

replies(1): >>23353315 #
179. 12elephant ◴[] No.23353131{4}[source]
> I think that looking at past history of voting fraud shows pretty conclusively that _vote by mail_ fraud has always been a very low percentage.

If fraud was committed successfully, it's not going to show up in the data. You won't know at all. It's like saying "there's no evidence of a cover-up". Well of course there isn't, that's the point.

I've heard plausible methodologies for carrying out mail-in vote fraud that would be undetectable. E.g. mail containing ballots being diverted/"lost". I can neither prove nor disprove this is happening though.

I agree that electronic voting is an even worse idea than mail-in voting.

180. FireBeyond ◴[] No.23353132{5}[source]
> but I was looking forward to a president ceding some of his power back to congress

And you were expecting that from someone who draws a significant amount of fame from "You're fired!", and "I'm the boss", "I have total authority"??

replies(2): >>23353497 #>>23355098 #
181. mthoms ◴[] No.23353146{7}[source]
Let me word it another way then.

Given limited resources, don't you think it's undeniably correct to direct those resources where they are more effective?

replies(1): >>23353341 #
182. mschuster91 ◴[] No.23353151{4}[source]
They actually do, there is alt-right Twitter aka gab.ai, alt-right Youtube aka Bitchute, alt-right Facebook aka Vkontakte, a boatload of "bulletproof" hosters and domain registrars. They even have their own TV stations (OAN, parts of Fox News), radios and podcasts.

For just about anything you want the alt-right has their "free speech" alternatives. The thing they are whining about is that the reach of these alternatives is way, WAY lower than the reach of the companies/projects of the alt-right. Almost as if the free market actually works and people deliberately choose to not engage in platforms dominated by alt-right hate mongers...

replies(2): >>23353353 #>>23353523 #
183. wool_gather ◴[] No.23353157{9}[source]
Current party lines blur to to the point of falling apart in the context of the 1964 Act, because it was a huge precipitating event for politicians switching parties (particularly Southern Democrats becoming Republicans). You can't directly map "Rs voted for the Act" onto party membership today: there was a very different mix of platforms at that time, only loosely comparable to what we have now.
replies(2): >>23353811 #>>23354128 #
184. FireBeyond ◴[] No.23353158{9}[source]
> Every law called "the Civil Rights Act" passed with overwhelming Republican support.

The PATRIOT Act is hardly a champion of many patriotic things. Names mean... very little, so I'm not sure your point.

"Every faction in Africa calls themselves by these noble names - Liberation this, Patriotic that, Democratic Republic of something-or-other... I guess they can't own up to what they usually are: the Federation of Worse Oppressors Than the Last Bunch of Oppressors. Often, the most barbaric atrocities occur when both combatants proclaim themselves Freedom Fighters."

replies(1): >>23353321 #
185. lukaa ◴[] No.23353174{8}[source]
''Military members are not obligated to follow illegal orders''. Ok, but this is not clear situation. Violence exists, therefore it needs to be stopped. Police station is burned down. Once police is not able to stop violence using military is only option.
replies(1): >>23353367 #
186. mschuster91 ◴[] No.23353179{3}[source]
> Would the same happen if Theil owned Twitter, and fact checked, etc. Joe Biden?

No, it would not, because generally left-wing people don't spread lies with the intention to dissuade people from voting (quite to the contrary, the left wing is fighting for people to have the right and means to vote) or call for storming the White House and start shooting.

replies(1): >>23355266 #
187. thejynxed ◴[] No.23353280{6}[source]
Because the people who run Reddit have said many, many times that as long as moderators enforce the site-wide rules, that mods (and users to an extent) have the freedom to run the subs however they see fit, post whatever they wish, and yes, by golly, call people by terms dubbed by some as "hate speech"
replies(1): >>23357270 #
188. mthoms ◴[] No.23353282{5}[source]
>You base that on what exactly?

Just about every other editorial on right leaning outlets that complain and moan about political correctness?

Oh, and actual self-identified right leaning HN/Redit users. Just ask, many of them will be quick to tell you (some version of) "political correctness is BS".

(To be clear, I know not all right-leaning people think this way, but a very large proportion do).

Just so I'm clear, are you arguing that avoiding political correctness is not a core tenet of a large part of the conservative base? I thought it was a badge of honor for many?

replies(3): >>23353693 #>>23353720 #>>23355092 #
189. FireBeyond ◴[] No.23353287{6}[source]
You ever watch how the police behave in some cities when there's looting and rioting because their team won a football or hockey championship. Because that absolutely proves that looting and rioting apparently don't have to lead to police action. They can stand by, or join the celebrations.
190. afuchs ◴[] No.23353288{9}[source]
The GP's focus on the republican party over the individual voters is misplaced in a historical context [1], but holds for the alignment of modern day voting blocs [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Party_System [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Party_System

191. misiti3780 ◴[] No.23353295{8}[source]
As i said above, I'm not a trump supporter.
192. thejynxed ◴[] No.23353311{3}[source]
I don't report anything except kiddie diddlers, cuz, in general, reporting is totally lame.
193. danaliv ◴[] No.23353314[source]
> as people feel like they have less and less say in a political process they are more and more likely to start employing means outside of it

Teetering on the brink of an epiphany.

194. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353315{6}[source]
Who is "you" here? Why do you assume I subscribe to corporation are people? Maybe stick to the actual point being made?
replies(1): >>23354938 #
195. harryh ◴[] No.23353321{10}[source]
The Civil Rights Acts were not bills with misleading names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968

replies(1): >>23357295 #
196. paulie_a ◴[] No.23353335{3}[source]
But you have to remember, they are going to pay more attention to people that have a lot of followers vs the person with 3. Limited resources trying to deal with the people that have the most impact makes sense to me

Personally I think they are just trying to call out a moron. But so what if you are trying to "interfere" with the election. Corporations are allowed to interject their own beliefs and politics too

197. 12elephant ◴[] No.23353341{8}[source]
Depends on what's being done with those resources.

Example 1 - Drumming up support for a war with Iran. No it's not correct to direct resources to where they are most effective. (According to me.)

Example 2 - Trying to get homeless people in SF back on their feet. Yes, direct resources where they are most effective. (Again, according to me.)

But in example 1 if we ask the same question to a war hawk in congress, they'll give you the exact opposite answer. In example 2 if you ask Ayn Rand, again you'll get a different answer.

No one is objectively right or wrong in any of these cases.

replies(1): >>23353697 #
198. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353340{6}[source]
Because corporations have disproportionate effect on the public and their mandate is to make money not proseletize whatever brand of BS the CEO happens to believe in.
replies(1): >>23353436 #
199. Larrikin ◴[] No.23353342{9}[source]
You forgot to mention that Lincoln was also a Republican while pretending that the party names of decades ago have anything to do with the party names currently.
replies(1): >>23354429 #
200. Thinkx220 ◴[] No.23353353{5}[source]
Or the other more logical reason being that free speech platforms are typically only clones of more poput platforms which don't offer any more features or increase ease of use.

I think it's completely possible for a popular pro free speech platform to exist provided it is able to be more user friendly or have some other killer feature.

201. geofft ◴[] No.23353361{5}[source]
Let me make sure I understand your position properly - are you saying that it is insidious left-sing bias to believe that people's rights can be violated by mere words alone?

The entire purpose of Section 230 is to provide protection against civil liability for platforms who publish mere words from their users. Is your position, then, that if we remove the insidious left-wing bias from our political system, there's no need for Section 230 because platforms can never be liable for the mere words that they republish?

Are all of the commentators who are asking for Twitter's Section 230 protections to be removed, including the president, part of an insidious left-wing conspiracy?

202. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23353367{9}[source]
Police (and the military if they're being used as a police force) do not have the authority to fire on looters. It would actually be illegal. And an order to do so is, as a consequence, an illegal order.

Regarding the burning down of the police station, that is a different kind of violence and a violent response from the police would've been more warranted.

replies(1): >>23354038 #
203. thethethethe ◴[] No.23353376{6}[source]
> He can be both racist and correct that looting generally leads to shooting.

It appears as though you are deliberately misinterpreting this statement to confirm your biases.

This statement is obviously intended to be interpreted as “the state will shoot looters (and possibly other protesters) when there is looting during a political protest”. If you genuinely don’t see it this way after considering all of contextual history of racial violence and injustice, it must benefit you to have your head in the sand

replies(2): >>23355473 #>>23358224 #
204. rovolo ◴[] No.23353381{3}[source]
I think the Quillette piece is overstating its evidence to make a rhetorical point. 1) They're only measuring the last enforcement step. 2) n=22 is really small. 3) They're measuring (suspended|trump) and are asserting the relationship is causal. If you download their dataset, you find these 4 people listed under the "supports trump" column: Alex Jones, American Nazi Party, David Duke, Richard Spencer. I think most everyone can agree these 4 weren't suspended because they are conservative or voted for Trump. (The other instances probably aren't partisan either, but not everyone will know about those people)

> database of prominent, politically active users who are known to have been temporarily or permanently suspended from the platform. … Of 22 prominent, politically active individuals who are known to have been suspended since 2005 and who expressed a preference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, 21 supported Donald Trump.

The Vox piece isn't an "admission" that their moderation is biased. Twitter's CEO is "admitting" that the politics of the developers is heavily liberal:

> “We have a lot of conservative-leaning folks in the company as well, and to be honest, they don’t feel safe to express their opinions at the company,” Dorsey said. “They do feel silenced by just the general swirl of what they perceive to be the broader percentage of leanings within the company, and I don’t think that’s fair or right.”

205. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23353436{7}[source]
Ok, then define "neutral" and how it would be enforced.
replies(2): >>23353614 #>>23354633 #
206. ◴[] No.23353440[source]
207. thejynxed ◴[] No.23353442[source]
To be fair, in regard's to Trump's Twitter account, a Federal judge has already ruled that Twitter absolutely may not remove his account, and likewise, he may not block people who insult his spray tan, because it's a de facto public forum for interacting with the POTUS.
replies(1): >>23353997 #
208. dfxm12 ◴[] No.23353497{6}[source]
It was less "expecting", and more like "looking for a silver lining".
209. buzzerbetrayed ◴[] No.23353523{5}[source]
Conservative is not the same as alt-right. Most conservatives wouldn't go anywhere near Gab.
210. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353549{6}[source]
Liberals have a stranglehold in Tech. This will probably never change, its not the result of a conspiracy its simply an emerging phenomenon that arises from the over representation of traits like openness and curiosity in left leaning people. However, this is not fair nor good for the nation and it floors me that this is not obvious to any fair minded person. There are other sectors of society that have symmetrical proportions of conservatives. Farming, for example. Should farmers choose to feed only conservatives? Of course not. This isn't about left and right, its about a modicum of empathy, of fairness to all, including people who think differently.
replies(1): >>23356299 #
211. 2OEH8eoCRo0 ◴[] No.23353605[source]
so they must police across the board or police none? Well since it's impossible to police everything what should they do?

In my view at the end of the day Twitter can police whoever they want and users can leave if they don't like it.

212. mwfunk ◴[] No.23353607{5}[source]
Almost the entire American right wing media is continually hate- and fearmongering about their perceived political opponents, actively and/or knowingly spreading disinformation, and has been for my entire adult life, at least as long as I've been paying attention, which is going on several decades. That's their only move, give people enemies so they don't actually have to propose solutions to anything. It's easy to give people enemies, much harder to actually solve complicated problems that require getting everyone on board. There used to be a more intellectual, reality-focused American right wing (and still is, but to a vastly smaller degree than just a few years ago). But now Alex Jones has replaced William F. Buckley and modern Republicans are much more likely to know about Rush Limbaugh than Edmund Burke. Buckley and Burke would get tarred and feathered as RINOs nowadays and that's really saying something.

That's not an opinion or a judgement, that's just reality, as much as 1+1=2 or the sky being blue. It doesn't require interpreting anything or contextualizing anything. It's obvious and plain as day, and eyes and ears and integrity and maturity are all that are required to perceive it. I absolutely believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that any reasonable application of any reasonable rules of moderation concerning threats, abuse, and misinformation would have much more impact on a typical Trump supporter in 2020 than anyone else (still faithful in 2020 folks, that's the type of person we're talking about here), and that that would be almost certainly the fault of the individual, and not biased moderation. The only way moderation would affect both sides equally would be if both sides were the same, or composed of the same sort of people.

But both sides have never been the same, and that's more true now than at any time since the Civil War. Except that now Republicans identify with Confederates instead of Lincoln and his ideals, and somehow Democrats flipped from representing Evangelical rural Southerners to representing the industrialized, urban, and successful parts of America, that were represented by Republicans in Lincoln's day.

FWIW I agree with George Washington that political parties themselves are the poison pill that repeatedly divides and screws up America, and that our current system is fatally flawed because it naturally leads to a two-party system, and that two-party systems by definition lead to more corruption and shittier governance. Just because one party is clearly criminally corrupt doesn't make the other party the goodguys, but until (if ever) we get rid of FPTP voting, it's a "pick the lesser evil" situation, and hoo boy is one evil obviously lesser than the other one.

replies(2): >>23353743 #>>23357454 #
213. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353614{8}[source]
It is a tough problem. I think social media companies should treated more like utilities than publishers and should not be held responsible for their content beyond removing illegal materials. I think they should provide their users with the tools they need to moderate their feeds themselves, with an emphasis on transparency and user control. We do not need Twitter and Facebook to protect us from each other.
replies(1): >>23353699 #
214. QuercusMax ◴[] No.23353662{5}[source]
Why do you think he even got elected? All the news networks had him on constantly. If they had ignored him, he never would have been as influential.
replies(1): >>23355188 #
215. partiallypro ◴[] No.23353667[source]
There are tons of examples. Look in almost any thread and there are people calling for public hangings of politicians, assassinations. The "guillotine" crowd. People telling people to burn down the city. Some people saying anti-Semitic stuff...I've reported a lot of this. Twitter usually comes back and say they found it wasn't in violation of anything. There are other politicians, such as Chinese officials, Iranian officials the Twitter has not policed or marked as misleading despite them being outright anti-Semitic or propaganda.
216. d0100 ◴[] No.23353672{4}[source]
Would you not doubt an "internally racist" person to moderate a black community?
217. agarden ◴[] No.23353682{4}[source]
Offensive to whom? By definition, a conservative has a bias towards keeping things as they have been. As such, we should expect a conservative's sensibilities to be more along the lines of our parent's or grandparent's (or maybe even great-grandparent's) generation.

So look at it this way: are the things that conservatives say outside the bounds of common decency of the 1980s? 1950s? 1930s? Then ask if the kind of things that left-leaning users say are outside the bounds of common decency of the 1980s, 1950s, 1930s.

You say that political correctness is just common decency. Your grandparents probably had a different standard for common decency in their day.

replies(2): >>23354141 #>>23356144 #
218. meheleventyone ◴[] No.23353693{6}[source]
Also going around calling everyone snowflakes for being offended by whatever heinous thing they come out with that day.
219. mthoms ◴[] No.23353697{9}[source]
Quite clearly the question implied "all other things being equal" or "all other factors aside", "what would you do?".

It's funny. I went out of my way to de-politicize the question in order to further the discussion and you promptly re-politicized it in order to muddy it. I suspect it's because you know exactly what I'm getting at. You've avoided the core question no less than 3 times already.

I'll try one more time. Please resist the temptation to play word games or make it political:

If Twitter has limited fact-checking capabilities is it not correct — regardless of politics — to direct those resources where they are more effective?

Therefore (again, regardless of politics), Twitter's actions follow perfectly reasonable logic: that Trump's Tweets would face more scrutiny than say, mine.

Thus, your claim that "the rules are being enforced selectively" can easily be accounted for by Occams Razor: It makes perfect sense that more visible accounts face more scrutiny. It would be highly illogical for Twitter to do otherwise.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/occams-razor/

replies(1): >>23408052 #
220. riffic ◴[] No.23353699{9}[source]
> I think social media companies should treated more like utilities

I don't think that's a good, or even workable solution. Social media companies are not public utilities.

replies(1): >>23353807 #
221. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353717{6}[source]
What difference would it make if Twitter was run by a conservative or a democrat as long as they were not meddling with the content? And if they are meddling the content, do you not think that this very dangerous given their dominance as a medium of speech? Just run the thought experiment, imagine that Twitter's leadership held political positions you abhorred and was free to boost or suppress speech, what Dorsey calls the "global conversation", in order to advance those politics. Does that sound OK to you?
replies(1): >>23354623 #
222. ThomPete ◴[] No.23353720{6}[source]
i am arguing that who is politically correct depends on time and context. There was a time when the left was politically incorrect conpared to the mainstream. It has nothing to do with political observation.
223. virmundi ◴[] No.23353722{4}[source]
That’s already happened. Conservatives don’t do social media as much as the left. Voat and gab haven’t taken off.
replies(1): >>23353980 #
224. ThomPete ◴[] No.23353743{6}[source]
i love it when political opinion pieces gets presented by the author as just reality. Its certainly not my reality you are explaining.
replies(1): >>23422689 #
225. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353788{6}[source]
Do you really think that the 50% of the population that is conservative is really much more prone to asshole behavior? Does that really make sense to you?
replies(1): >>23355011 #
226. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23353807{10}[source]
I may have used the wrong term. I do not mean utilities in that sense, I mean they should act as carriers rather than publishers of information. That is more like the phone company and less like the NY Times.
227. kmonsen ◴[] No.23353811{10}[source]
This is the real answer, due to the civil rights movement the DNC lost the south due to the less civil minded parts of the party switched to the republicans.
replies(1): >>23354222 #
228. NateEag ◴[] No.23353828{5}[source]
My question was, in fact, in good faith. I wanted to know if you would apply your generalization to me, as the way it read it seemed to me like it would.

Apparently it doesn't, so I guess I didn't get what you meant.

I tried to go back and reread it, but it's flagged now and I don't see a way to.

I think your example is actually closer to intellectual honesty than you think it is.

"Small government" is not "no government".

To a pro-life conservative, abortion is murder.

I've yet to meet a conservative who doesn't think the government should be involved in preventing murder.

Requiring you look at the victim before killing them is a pretty pathetic protection against murder, but it's probably better than nothing.

I'd guess from your framing that you support abortion rights. If so, I can certainly see why this would look like intellectual dishonesty to you, but as I argued above, I think that's due to not understanding the people you're talking about well enough, at least in this case.

229. joshuamorton ◴[] No.23353849{7}[source]
If I said that, it's an observation. If the chief of police said that, it's an implied threat. This is because I don't have the power to initiate shootings, while the chief of police does. There is a power differential, and statements can be viewed in the context of the person making them.

This is why phrases like "we should nuke them from orbit", which might be calls to violence if made by a head of state, are generally seen as satire, because there's no chance of me actually nuking someone from orbit. Context matters.

230. sagichmal ◴[] No.23353880{5}[source]
> There is no objective "ethically correct" anything.

That's correct. Luckily, objectivity is not necessary.

231. meheleventyone ◴[] No.23353980{5}[source]
The problem with the offshoots is that they instantly turn into cesspools. I don't think it's that conservatives do social media less it's that associating themselves with values they disagree with isn't popular. Even the conservatives that agree with the people "saying the quiet bits out loud" know that it's tactically dumb to align yourself with them.
232. joshuamorton ◴[] No.23353997{3}[source]
> ruled that Twitter absolutely may not remove his account

I just skimmed through that ruling, and couldn't find this. Could you cite where she ruled that twitter couldn't remove his account?

replies(1): >>23355199 #
233. lukaa ◴[] No.23354038{10}[source]
But what if looters as in this case are also burning buildings that they are looting?
replies(1): >>23355057 #
234. rayiner ◴[] No.23354128{10}[source]
That's an overstatement, which has been popularized by Democrats to distance themselves from their longstanding coalition with southern segregationists. The key Civil Rights Acts were passed from 1957 to 1968. The political alignments on various issues haven't changed much since FDR. Democrats were on the liberal alignment with respect to government regulation, business freedom, taxes, education, immigration, social welfare, religion, gun control, etc.

Contrary to your statement, the Civil Rights Acts were not a "precipitating event for politicians switching parties." That doesn't even make sense--why would politicians who were against civil rights join the party that much more strongly supported every Civil Rights Act from 1957 to 1968?

The realignment of southern democrats actually occurred much later. Nixon did not win a majority in any southern state--to the extent he won with a plurality, it was only because the Democratic vote was split between Humphrey and Wallace. In 1976, Carter won with the same east-coast south/north coalition that long voted Democrat; with Ford winning the west coast and mid-west. Reagan won almost every state, but his margins in New York were larger than his margins in Alabama or the Carolinas. Reagan did blow out Mondale in the south in 1984, but I'm not sure how much that tells us. Even by the time of Clinton, he won Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Georgia, not to mention Arkansas.

I think the more accurate take is that the political realignment of the parties on "civil rights" issues happened more in the mid-late 1980s through 1990s. And it happened because the nature of the "civil rights" debate morphed over that time. The battle fronts during the 1980s and 1990s was not eliminating de jure and overt discrimination (the aim of the 1950s and 1960s legislation republicans supported), but measures like affirmative action, which sought to use the power of government to shape private conduct to eliminate existing inequities. That of course maps very cleanly onto longstanding republican versus democrat positions.

(I'll give another example of situations where political alignments change because the issue has changed rather than the "mix of platforms" of the parties. On the abortion front, for example, a significant amount of the debate has moved from talking about whether it should be legal at all, to talking about whether religious organizations should be required to provide healthcare coverage for them, whether the government should support them with public funding, etc. If you're a consistent libertarian, you might have found yourself more aligned with Democrats back in the early 1990s, but more aligned with Republicans today.)

replies(2): >>23354863 #>>23355869 #
235. kthxbye123 ◴[] No.23354129{5}[source]
There is no equivalence between property damage equivalent to killing, much as there is no equivalence between a random twitter user “calling for the guillotines” and the commander of the armed forces threatening to unleash a massacre. It is beyond bad faith to argue otherwise.
236. mthoms ◴[] No.23354141{5}[source]
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

The overall trend is that justice and respect for human dignity has steadily, undeniably, increased over the last several hundred years. Therefore, generally speaking, I would say that yes, a modern 30-something has more "decency" than one of 50, 75 or 100 years ago.

To be totally clear, I don't fault my grandparents or other people that are products of these eras. They aren't necessarily bad people. And certainly, the measure of "common decency" would, of course, be different then.

I just can't wrap my head around longing for a time when society was more constrained/repressive/intolerant. Yes, there are things I think were better in the past, but they are the exception.

(side note: this is not to say I don't think political correctness can go too far, it certainly can. There are exceptions to everything).

replies(1): >>23355113 #
237. rayiner ◴[] No.23354222{11}[source]
That makes literally no sense. Republicans supported the civil rights acts of 1957 through 1968 with supermajorities, by far larger margins than democrats did. How can it be that "due to the civil rights movement," "less civil minded" people switched from a party that voted for the Civil Rights Acts, to the party that voted for the Civil Rights Acts by even larger margins?

The realignment of southern democrats is due more to the fact that, once segregation--which democrats tolerated and republicans didn't--was off the table, they were more aligned with republicans on other issues, such as religion, gun control, abortion, business regulation, taxes, etc.

replies(1): >>23354660 #
238. cryptica ◴[] No.23354227[source]
I think this is actually a balanced argument.

HN should have a setting so that the most downvoted posts show up at the top of the page... That would save me a lot of scrolling to get to the unpleasant but accurate content.

239. dpoochieni ◴[] No.23354275{5}[source]
This so much, I think as people strength in their own opinions has weakened they have replaced it with this us/vs them mentality where you must agree with them in all issues. At root, a narcissistic culture where lack of personality and individuation is overcompensated by external signalling of virtue. "Oh look at those soyboys, we are so much masculine than them." "Oh look at those rednecks who voted for Trump, why can't they get a college education."

First case, Why so insecure that you constantly need the other to reaffirm yourself? Second, Why do you need to reaffirm your college education was actually worth something? (Many cases, sad to say but they should sue to get your money back)

replies(1): >>23355342 #
240. gurkendoktor ◴[] No.23354379[source]
The problem then becomes, who decides which tweets to fact-check? If most politicians at the higher levels are liars, singling out a few of them is unfair even if Trump is notorious for it.

Twitter can clearly not fact-check every single tweet on its platform. But what if they did it for every tweet (maybe from a verified account) that X people report for being untruthful? Trump would look bad even if Twitter held everyone to the same standard, and the blue checkmark would come with some responsibility not to lie, so why not?

replies(1): >>23358455 #
241. rayiner ◴[] No.23354429{10}[source]
First, the specific claim was that Republicans invoked "states rights" to oppose the Civil Rights Acts, which is just demonstrably untrue.

Second, we're talking about the 1960s, not the 1860s. By that time, the Democrats were already the party of FDR and JFK, and Republicans were already the party of Richard Nixon. JFK won the Carolinas, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana, and beat Nixon in Alabama and Mississippi, because it was perceived that he had a poor record on civil rights.

The idea that the “party labels flipped” is just blatant historical revisionism. By the 1950s and 1960s, Democrats were the party both of African Americans (who switched from Republicans during the FDR era), the War in Poverty, and southern segregationists. What happened is that, at some point, support for outright discrimination became unviable, and the battle front moved to other issues, such as affirmative action. That naturally fit into Democrats’ willingness to use the power of government to address social inequities.

replies(1): >>23355187 #
242. dnissley ◴[] No.23354536{5}[source]
I certainly wouldn't like that they took such an action, even if I liked whatever candidate they were stanning for. It would come off as pretty classless to most people I think.

But should it be illegal? IMO -- no. If this is the hill that some company wants to die on, let them try. Why not?

Thought experiment: If there was a political candidate running on a platform to destroy the internet, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for internet companies to vouch for the competition.

243. Simulacra ◴[] No.23354623{7}[source]
I think we are in agreement. I don't want Twitter meddling with content, regardless of who runs it. My opinion is that the outrage would be different if it were run by a conservative. The American two-party system seems to require us versus them, even in how twitter is run.
244. makeb1 ◴[] No.23354633{8}[source]
If the Internet companies want common carrier protections like generally not being responsible for user actions, they have to act like a common carrier.

I'm saying this as someone who thinks Twitter in general is stupid, Trump behaves like a clown on Twitter and the best outcome would be if everyone stopped using Twitter.

But you cannot have it both ways, and in that particular issue he is right.

245. hundt ◴[] No.23354650{5}[source]
My understanding is that (c)(2)(A) is only about liability for the act of moderation itself, e.g. suing Twitter because they banned you. If they did that in bad faith you could hypothetically maybe sue them for it, but there would need to be a cause of action, which there normally wouldn't be.

'gnopgnip may be referring to the much broader liability shield, for the content that you do not remove, which is provided by (c)(1) and has no good-faith requirement. That is Twitter's main "legal protection from defamation and libel" that you mention above.

Trump's executive order suggests that the (c)(1) liability shield could go away if you don't meet the (c)(2) good-faith requirements, which I gather is not considered a strong legal position.

replies(1): >>23355846 #
246. kmonsen ◴[] No.23354660{12}[source]
You are either willfully cherry-picking facts here or being ignorant. This info is widely available and it was the racists south that was against the civil rights movement and the union states pushed it through. When the 64 law passed the DNC had 21 out of 22 confederate senators, 1 of whom voted for the act. GOP had 1 southern senator, who voted against it.

Looking at the union numbers, DNC had 46 senators of whom 45 voted for the act while the GOP had 32 of which 27 voted for it. So in union numbers the DNC senators voted 98% for it, while GOP did so with 84%.

Here is a longer article with this information: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/28/republ...

As a result of this both parties changed. The DNC took a stand for civil rights and the southern democrats left. At the same time the GOP got a lot new members that influenced the party and created the new power base for it. Later GOP close victories all relied on the previous southern democrats.

Bigger picture, it is clear that the party depending on the south needs to cater to a voting base that is not very positive to civil rights movement, and the opposite for a party that wants to hold the north. It is important to understand that the DNC took a stand here that lost them the south long term because it was the right thing to do (in their minds).

replies(1): >>23354939 #
247. gurkendoktor ◴[] No.23354723{4}[source]
Absolutely, I am someone who always reads comments (yes, even on YouTube) because they often serve as a poor man's fact check. However, Twitter apparently has plans to sabotage that: https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/08/twitter-limit-replies-feature...
248. wool_gather ◴[] No.23354863{11}[source]
Sure, I won't deny that it's a much more complex situation than my two sentences. But I'm not sure how "realignment unfolded across the next decade or two" contradicts the 60s civil rights actions "precipitating" that realignment.
replies(1): >>23355281 #
249. GordonS ◴[] No.23354917[source]
As much as I hate Trump, this isn't a "Trump thing". This was someone with a large following who was very clearly and overtly threatening to turn a situation into a bloodbath.
250. dlp211 ◴[] No.23354938{7}[source]
Anytime that someone says 'you' on the internet, the actual you should assume that they aren't speaking about the actual you specifically, but to the collective you that makes the argument that corporations are people.
replies(1): >>23357919 #
251. rayiner ◴[] No.23354939{13}[source]
So your theory is that "racists" left the DNC because it "took a stand for civil rights" and decamped to the party that had taken a stronger stand for civil rights for the 100 years preceding that? How does that make sense?

You are also not really correct in claiming that "later GOP close victories all relied on the previous southern democrats." The 1976 Carter-Ford election was pretty close, with Carter winning by 2% overall. In North Carolina, Carter won by 10 points, while he won New York by less than 5 points. Regan won North Carolina by 2 points and New York by 3 points 1980.

It's no doubt that Republicans gained a decisive advantage in the south eventually, but that happened decades later.

replies(1): >>23355259 #
252. ◴[] No.23355009[source]
253. techntoke ◴[] No.23355011{7}[source]
When the 50% you're talking about was notorious for calling people snowflakes and betas, yes I do believe they are more prone to advocate for violence, racism, and hate speech.
replies(1): >>23355249 #
254. StanislavPetrov ◴[] No.23355018[source]
>This is just not true, and is a false dichotomy. Moderation is hard.

It's absolutely true, and has absolutely nothing to do with moderation "being hard". As someone who absolutely opposes Trump, but also absolutely opposes our many wars and global bombings, I'm horrified on a daily basis (and have been since 2009 when I joined Twitter) by open calls for violence against a wide variety of countries from Syria to Venezuela to Iran. When has Twitter ever suspended anyone (let alone a public figure, or even Trump himself, who has called for violence against other countries many times) a single time for openly calling for violence against the people of any of the countries? The answer is never. Its beyond absurd, bordering on delusional, to pretend that Twitter's actions here weren't nakedly political and have absolutely nothing to do with a standard against, "fomenting violence".

255. oska ◴[] No.23355046[source]
It wasn't explicitly calling for violence but Elon Musk's recent tweet [1] calling for "politicians & unelected bureaucrats" to be "tarred, feathered & thrown out of town" certainly was trending in that direction and could easily have been interpreted as a call for violence, or at least assault, by some sections of Musk's vast (35 million) collection of followers. Especially when the particular 'unelected bureaucrat' that Musk had been most vociferously complaining about and attacking, the Alameda County Health Officer, had been named in numerous news reports.

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1261100731378982912

256. Jtsummers ◴[] No.23355057{11}[source]
Then that is a different circumstance. What's your point?
257. Proziam ◴[] No.23355090{3}[source]
Everyone cheered in the streets when Obama sent in the SEALs to kill Bin Laden. Violence is tolerable if people don't empathize with the victim, apparently.
258. StanislavPetrov ◴[] No.23355092{6}[source]
"Political correctness" is complete garbage. This is an opinion shared by a wide variety of people across the political spectrum (as well as by the majority of people who eschew politics all together). Belief in free speech and free expression is not a "conservative" position - quite the opposite. Ironically (and unfortunately) the authoritarian identitarians who currently control the Democratic party and large portions of legacy media have pushed many people who believe in free speech towards Trump (or just out of the political system all together) with their toxic demands for adherence to "political correctness".
replies(1): >>23356200 #
259. walshemj ◴[] No.23355098{6}[source]
If Trump presidency ends badly, I could see the President becoming more like the Doge in Venice, every time the Doge failed they tended to lose power.

Probably for Mr Trumps relatives the best way out is hope he dies or have him sectioned - in return for a presidential pardon.

260. xupybd ◴[] No.23355113{6}[source]
To say that respect for human dignity has increased over time is very subjective. While I think many would agree with you a large portion of society would not.

An example: Traditional values would say that modern men have less respect for human dignity given the rise in single motherhood. Out of respect men were expected to stick around and help raise a child.

No everyone is going to agree that we are moving in the right direction. It's important to remember that when engaging in political discussions. That people are not often acting out an evil agenda. They are just going with what they think is right.

Discussions on what is the best way forward for society are far more fruitful than the way politics are generally discussed online. Where the other side is evil and it should be obvious to everyone that they just want to see the world burn.

replies(1): >>23356048 #
261. ghostpepper ◴[] No.23355174{4}[source]
Offense and harm are not the same thing so IMHO you can't really make a sweeping statement about a group of people like that.

Also isn't political correctness subjective too? Or is there a canonical definition of what is and is not politically correct that I'm unaware of.

replies(1): >>23355768 #
262. jakelazaroff ◴[] No.23355187{11}[source]
> First, the specific claim was that Republicans invoked "states rights" to oppose the Civil Rights Acts, which is just demonstrably untrue.

I have since changed it to “conservatives”, which is the ideology that supported Jim Crow and opposed the Civil Rights Act regardless of what the party name happened to be.

replies(2): >>23355469 #>>23362222 #
263. zepto ◴[] No.23355188{6}[source]
On the other hand if nobody took him seriously As a candidate, the networks would have ignored him.
264. thejynxed ◴[] No.23355199{4}[source]
In the part where it was declared a de facto public forum for interacting with the POTUS. It is implied that Twitter would face consequences for violating the rights of the population to redress grievances directly with their elected leader in the forum, in this case, it being a Twitter account. The US National Archives also weighed in and said they would sanction Twitter if the account is removed before the end of his Presidency.
replies(1): >>23355329 #
265. zepto ◴[] No.23355220{4}[source]
Ok, but that argument applies to Twitter which itself is a powerful actor.
266. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23355249{8}[source]
As opposed to notorious for calling people violent, racist and hateful, since those are just accurate assessments, right?
replies(1): >>23355809 #
267. scythe ◴[] No.23355255{3}[source]
>Update: admission

This link doesn't say what you claim. It's Dorsey talking about the internal social environment at Twitter's offices, not Twitter's moderation policies.

268. exclusiv ◴[] No.23355266{4}[source]
Different side of the coin. They often spread lies to persuade people to vote for them. Almost everyone in politics is full of it.

If you believe your side is the good one and the other is bad, it's probably because it's part of your identity. And that prevents you from thinking about it honestly and results in more polarization. Once you accept they're all full of it, you will think more clearly. And you'll have better dialogue with opposing viewpoints.

269. rayiner ◴[] No.23355281{12}[source]
You made a much broader point than what you've retreated to:

> Current party lines blur to to the point of falling apart in the context of the 1964 Act, because it was a huge precipitating event for politicians switching parties (particularly Southern Democrats becoming Republicans). You can't directly map "Rs voted for the Act" onto party membership today: there was a very different mix of platforms at that time, only loosely comparable to what we have now.

In the 1950s and 1960s, as today, Democrats were the party of social welfare, regulation, big government, higher taxes, etc. And republicans were the party of big business, tax cuts, religion in schools, etc. Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx haven't voted for a Republican since the 1920s.

Apart from that, the way you phrased it makes it seem like southern democrats defected to the Republican Party because the democrats supported the 1964 civil rights act. That misleadingly implies that republicans didn't support the 1964 civil rights act (even more strongly)--otherwise, why would southern democrats defect to the Republican Party? Standing alone, it's an assertion that makes no sense, and it subtly tars Republicans as somehow having opposed civil rights.

What happened instead is that the issue changed. "Civil rights" in 1964 meant eliminating discrimination at lunch counters and on busses. That victory was won decisively. By the 1980s and early 1990s, the front had moved to things like affirmative action and racal quotas: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/01/15/q.... That triggered a realignment, based on pre-existing ideological lanes. The same republicans who supported the Civil Rights Act of 1964 could, entirely consistent with their ideology, oppose affirmative efforts to eliminate racial disparities.

270. exclusiv ◴[] No.23355322[source]
I know what you mean, but that's an insult to actual liberals. You're referring to leftists. They hijacked "liberal" some time ago.
271. joshuamorton ◴[] No.23355329{5}[source]
Ah okay, you're implying something more nuanced than I originally understood you to be. Preventing trump from making any more tweets ("banning him") would be okay, but deleting the account and all existing tweets wouldn't.
272. moosey ◴[] No.23355342{6}[source]
I recently read "The Organized Mind". I didn't expect it to be a book on ethics, but it certainly did impact me that way, and caused me to alter an enormous number of faulty mental behaviors, and allowed me to see abuse in language.

> "Oh look at those rednecks who voted for Trump, why can't they get a college education."

This right here is an example of why it's so easy. Part of what I'm reading there is fundamental attribution error. A person, anywhere right now, that can't get a college education in the US is dealing with a lot of headwind. Our education system is punitive, starting with an A and stripping you of points all the way through, causing undue stress, knowing that if you fail, you probably won't have the money to move forward, and will have great difficulty. Rich people get a free pass on this. Put a system like this together and the reason that people can't get educations is situational, not dispositional. We as a society must do better.

I mentioned miscategorization already, which is something that our brains naturally do when seeing people different from us, and requires intentional mental unbundling to see all humans as the same category. This is why racism is so common as well; without intentional work, humans will find categories by which to judge outsiders.

Our social media breaks human relationships because far too many interactions are decided publicly, through shame, rather than through communication. An enormous emotional abuse crisis in the US has now reached the highest levels of society, both private and public, and I certainly put enormous amounts of blame not on the companies that make social media sites, but because our brains are simply not well-tasked to deal with it. Further, the end of comprehensive mental health, particularly CBT and emotional withholding and the damages that they cause so many people and relationships.

I have a strong feeling that in the coming decade, there will be studies in cognitive psychology demonstrating the connection between stock markets and wealth and the base level fear/reward circuitry of the brain, delaying and reducing ethical and social cognition. Causing a focus on economic power rather than social conformity, and thus damaging society.

Regardless, I apologize for blathering, I think about this stuff a lot.

273. dmkolobov ◴[] No.23355374{5}[source]
There's a difference between "editorializing" and "omitting". They're not changing the hate speech, they're just not showing it.
replies(1): >>23355439 #
274. ◴[] No.23355390{5}[source]
275. ThomPete ◴[] No.23355439{6}[source]
thats editorializing
276. arminiusreturns ◴[] No.23355454[source]
It's because lots of people don't want to admit the issues with the current state of affairs with big-tech social media, such as lopsided and selective enforcement of the rules...
277. rayiner ◴[] No.23355469{12}[source]
That's still inaccurate. Republicans in the 1930s-1960s were ideologically conservative. Southern democrats, meanwhile, were in many respects ideologically liberal, for example supporting the New Deal: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/new-deal-democrats-rep....

> There were conservative tendencies in American politics before the 1930s, but the modern conservative movement was founded on opposition to the New Deal. The segregationist Democrats, on the other hand, were for the most part eager supporters of the New Deal—provided it was administered in a way that would exclude African Americans from most of its benefits. You do not have to take my word for it—consider the votes: on labor reform, on entitlements, on financial regulation, etc. If the southern Democrats were “conservatives,” then the New Deal was passed on conservative support, which is a very odd claim to make.

278. zepto ◴[] No.23355473{7}[source]
I don’t think there needs to be anything deliberate about it.

My guess is that there is a huge set of people who doesn’t know the origin, and see the statement as more of a statement of fact.

279. ghshephard ◴[] No.23355524{7}[source]
That's probably the most insightful and (to my mind) intelligent assessment I've heard when asking that question. It eliminates any handwaving about "tradition" or "precedent" - and gets right down to the fundamental elements of power and control, and risk.
280. rayiner ◴[] No.23355596{15}[source]
You’re pointing to elections that happened more than three decades after the Civil Rights Acts of 1957-1968. That doesn’t support your point that the parties’ positions in the Civil Rights Acts was critical to those results. Couldn’t it be that those results are the product of things that happened during the 1990s, such as Democratic support for affirmative action?

As to the scare quotes, I’m using them because you’re using the term to refer to people who voted for Bush, it just Storm Thurmond.

281. LordDragonfang ◴[] No.23355768{5}[source]
>Offense and harm are not the same thing

Correct, but it's disingenuous to suggest they're not strongly correlated at the group level.

282. techntoke ◴[] No.23355809{9}[source]
Are you disagreeing here that Republican voters are not more prone to those behaviors than Democrats?
replies(1): >>23356058 #
283. koheripbal ◴[] No.23355846{6}[source]
The thing with selective enforcement is that then anyone with claims against Twitter can claim that their moderation attempts are all in bad faith, because they are selective - thereby opening them up to libel.
replies(1): >>23356683 #
284. shawndrost ◴[] No.23355869{11}[source]
I'm a longtime fan of your comments and you've shaped my POV on many things. I am a religious reader of https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=rayiner

You normally have the facts on your side, or else you make generous and clear concessions. What is happening here? You are saying such incorrect (or confusing) things.

In point of fact, Democratic presidential candidates began to lose in Southern states because of integration well before the 1970s. Formerly-Democratic Southerners splintered from the Democratic party for explicitly segregationist reasons, and carried several Southern states under a third-party banner, in two different presidential elections (1948 and 1968).

(One of them, Strom Thurmond, is a direct counterexample to your argument that the Civil Rights Acts were not a "precipitating event for politicians switching parties." At least according to Wikipedia, he switched his affiliation to Republican because of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.)

Is this, like, something you haven't read about yet? Or do you have a strong argument that explains the above, which I don't get yet?

replies(1): >>23362595 #
285. tareqak ◴[] No.23355931{4}[source]
> Politics is a team based sport.

I wonder if there is a relationship between the level of competitiveness that a people have for sports with the level of competitiveness that they have in politics and other aspects said people’s lives.

Competitive behavior seems to desire to highlight differences amongst the in-group versus the outgroups. Competitive behavior also excels at drumming up visceral desire to act regardless of whether the desire is rational or whether the act truly and completely satisfies the desire.

Why is it difficult to immediately associate with the largest in-group i.e. all of humanity / all of life itself / the objective truth?

Why not fight a group that has no members i.e. poverty (that which makes and keeps people poor as opposed to the poor), hunger, homelessness, poor health and disease, intolerable / harmful discomfort (difficulty breathing, too much heat, too much cold, too dry, too wet, etc.), pollution, and death (untimely or all death period)?

286. mthoms ◴[] No.23356048{7}[source]
>To say that respect for human dignity has increased over time is very subjective.

No. No it isn't. That's patently ridiculous. Almost every decade of the past couple hundred years has consistently seen better human rights (in the Western World at least).

We're talking about: the elimination of slavery, establishment of women's rights, childrens' rights, elimination of colonialism, elimination of authoritarian rule by non-elected persons, elimination of torture, the right to freedom of speech, the right to a fair trial, single digit illiteracy, near zero deaths due to hunger, reduced systemic oppression against minority groups, reduced systemic oppression against non-traditional sexual orientations, universal access to free basic healthcare (caveat: every western country except the US), universal access to free basic education, and, in my lifetime alone we've added access to affordable and near-instant worldwide communication with the right to use it anyway we see fit (within reason). [0]

Now, how (besides the environment) have things gotten worse from a human dignity standpoint in the west?

The one example you gave was indeed a decent one. I know there are other good ones but there's absolutely no way they will add up enough to tip the scales so that you can argue human rights and dignity have gotten worse overall.

----- [0]: The list provided contains generalizations about "Western Countries". The list is incomplete/imperfect in that there will be some exceptions/caveats. In other words, yes I'm sure someone could find something there to nitpick but it's generally true in the big picture.

replies(1): >>23379999 #
287. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23356058{10}[source]
Yes, I am. Both parties have assholes and both parties have great people in roughly equal proportions. The exact shape of the insults the shitty people throw at each other does not matter .
replies(1): >>23356346 #
288. threatofrain ◴[] No.23356144{5}[source]
I really don't understand the intuition behind using a prescription on American conservatism. It's like if I wanted to explain the Tories or the Whigs to you, I began with some lofty statement about intellectual principles.
289. mthoms ◴[] No.23356200{7}[source]
Since I didn't opine on whether "Political Correctness" is good or bad, none of your word salad has any relation to what I wrote.

Sorry, I won't bite. See if you can bait someone else.

290. tareqak ◴[] No.23356251{7}[source]
Was the cane broken intentionally or unintentionally?
291. perl4ever ◴[] No.23356299{7}[source]
My grandparents were farmers; my parents programmers.

Remember nearly everyone used to farm, including the ancestors of liberals. Today's right wing "family farmers" are the people who were most stubborn or least able to learn new things as their way of life shrank and not the representatives of farming in general.

replies(1): >>23356479 #
292. perl4ever ◴[] No.23356346{11}[source]
My kneejerk reaction would be that the worst of both sides are equally bad, but the proportions are wildly different.
293. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23356479{8}[source]
I am not sure I get what you are trying t say here. Whatever way we came to the demographics the fact remains that different occupations have very different proportions of liberals and conservatives so we best able to treat each other fairly because we need each other to function as a society.
294. hundt ◴[] No.23356683{7}[source]
Maybe, but did you read my post? You need a cause of action. It is not libel to moderate someone's tweets, so even if § 230 does not protect them you can't sue them for libel based on their moderation.
295. dependenttypes ◴[] No.23357046[source]
> ethically totally clear to "police" a sentiment from the President of the United States, while letting much more severe sentiments from egg accounts go un-policed

Debatable

296. dmode ◴[] No.23357270{7}[source]
That is literally not true. Reddit has removed many many outright racist and far right forums.
297. kasey_junk ◴[] No.23357295{11}[source]
The Voter Rights Act was a landmark civil rights act that isn’t obviously civil rights.
298. arminiusreturns ◴[] No.23357454{6}[source]
>But both sides have never been the same,

Both are owned by the same oligarchs, it's a pretend lesser of evils game that just pendulum swings back and forth every few election cycles and it amazes me people still fall for this kind of rhetoric. Then again, most people fell for Russiagate hook line and sinker too... and when we increasingly get the evidence about how false it was, crickets... The entire democratic party fell for disinformation just as easily as the republicans did. Stop kidding yourself.

299. zarkov99 ◴[] No.23357919{8}[source]
I am sorry but that does not make sense.
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300. ◴[] No.23358224{7}[source]
301. youeseh ◴[] No.23358455{3}[source]
Who decides which Tweats to fact-check: If someone is famous enough, you can bet that there will be at least one reporter frothing for the opportunity to be counted among trusted fact-checkers. Twitter might have to figure out a balance among reviewers but thats a lot less work than fact-checking each message.
302. dang ◴[] No.23359502{15}[source]
You crossed into breaking the site guidelines here. Please don't do that regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. It just makes the thread even worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

303. JamesBarney ◴[] No.23362222{12}[source]
I think if you use the term southerners you'd be good. We've consistently opposed civil rights and affirmative action. And we were more Democratic in the 60s and more Republican today.
304. rayiner ◴[] No.23362595{12}[source]
I think you’re overlooking some of the context of this thread. It started when someone said that republicans invoked states rights to justify opposing the Civil Rights Acts. Following that up with, “the Civil Rights Act was a huge precipitating event for southern Democrats to become Republicans” falsely reinforces the idea that Republicans opposed the Civil Rights Acts, when in fact they supported it overwhelmingly. Nor does it make sense to say that southern segregationists would leave the Democratic Party in response, to decamp for a party that supported the Civil Rights Act even more strongly.

Some Democrats like Thurmond did switch in 1964, because once Democrats abandoned their support for segregation, they found they shared other principles with Republicans. But focusing on those isolated instances overlooks and downplays the deep alliance between Democrats and segregationists. Woodrow Wilson, a pioneer of modern progressive “governance by expert bureaucracy” re-segregated the federal workforce. Segregationist Democrats were a key pillar of support for FDR’s New Deal. George Wallace was a segregationist, and also a New Dealer, a champion of labor who called for expanding Social Security. From 1930-1970, the Democratic coalition was glued together by the New Deal, with northern Democrats agreeing to look the other way at what southern Democrats were doing. (I use 1970 as the end date, because those alliances were in place even by Carter’s time: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/jimmy-carters-racist-camp.... Carter would not have won without the South.)

In fact, a minority of Republicans in the 1960s, like Barry Goldwater, did make overtures towards anti-integration forces, in an effort to win southern votes. But they never managed to dismantle the Democratic New Deal coalition in the south. That didn’t happen until much later. And at that point, two major things had happened. Southern states has transitioned from agricultural to industrial. The economy of places like Georgia had boomed by drawing businesses from northern states with lower taxes and less regulation. At the same time, the focus of the “civil rights” movement changed. It moved onto very different issues like affirmative action. I happen to support affirmative action, but it’s hard to deny that it’s an ideologically very different thing than the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Its the class “negative right” versus “positive right” dichotomy that’s always divided conservative versus liberal thought.

The reason I take an exception to the characterization above is that through omission framing, it attempts to tarnish Republicans for something they were on the right side of, while absolving Democrats of something they were for a long time on the wrong side of. It also falsely equates very different civil rights policies. It goes to Biden’s “[Romney] wants to put y’all back in chains” rhetoric. No, it was Democrats who wanted to do that. Romney, and modern Republicans, don’t want to use the power of government to affirmatively erase historical inequities. But it was the Romney-type pro-business Republicans that were a bulwark of the Civil Rights Acts.

replies(1): >>23363794 #
305. shawndrost ◴[] No.23363794{13}[source]
Thanks for the response! I get how this thread is about framing and partisanship and that is the part that is boring for me. I am more interested in the broader topic of the realignment, and I think you are articulating the clearest and strongest version of your argument that I've heard. I'd recap it as follows:

1) Democrats were the party of white ethno-nationalism, starting in the 1800s. 2) Democrats abandon that plank by the 1960s, joining with longstanding Republican efforts and overturning Jim Crow. 3) Much later, for unrelated reasons, the South becomes Republicans.

Is that about right?

I agree with #1 and #2. I disagree with #3 and I don't see how the facts support it.

First, there's the "much later" part of #3. Here [1] are presidential voting records for the 13 states of the confederacy. In every case but Missouri, there is a) a period of near-uniform Democratic domination from 1880-1944, b) a string of Democratic losses, and at least two Republican victories, by 1972.

(Yes, Carter won several of those states after Nixon's disgrace. To some degree I contest the conclusions you're drawing there: so did Hoover, Clinton, etc to lesser degrees. I acknowledge that many of these states were purple in the 1970s, but I don't think that supports the timeline of #3 in context.)

Second, there is the claim of "unrelated reasons". The idea that "a minority of Republicans in the 1960s" made overtures to segregationist Dems is equivalent to saying "Nixon didn't do anything like the Southern Strategy", right? (Or were you talking about regional races?) Doesn't that assertion, in turn, hinge on the idea that "states' rights" (to pick one example) is not an overture? If so, I would call it a weak argument.

[1]

https://www.270towin.com/states/Alabama https://www.270towin.com/states/Georgia https://www.270towin.com/states/Louisiana https://www.270towin.com/states/Mississippi https://www.270towin.com/states/Missouri https://www.270towin.com/states/North_Carolina https://www.270towin.com/states/South_Carolina https://www.270towin.com/states/Tennessee https://www.270towin.com/states/Texas https://www.270towin.com/states/Virginia

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306. adrianmonk ◴[] No.23363834{7}[source]
If some hypothetical person said it as an opinion or an observation, you'd have to look at Twitter's policy and try to understand the spirit of the law. Threats are a direct form of pro-violence speech, and glorifying violence is an indirect form of pro-violence speech, so it seem to cover a spectrum to me.

But whichever way they interpret it, all that really matters when it comes to fairness is that they are consistent.

If we look at a very non-hypothetical person named Donald Trump, he wrote "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" immediately after "I won't let that happen" and "the Military" and "we will assume control". Without context, the words could be just an opinion or observation, but in the context he used them, that's not a reasonable interpretation. You don't mention sending in the military (who have guns, obviously) and then mention shooting as a total non sequitur in the next sentence.

If somehow improbably he meant it to be an opinion or observation, he phrased it terribly, and Twitter is within their rights to interpret it how he wrote it.

307. rayiner ◴[] No.23365143{14}[source]
First: the timing of the transition. Let’s take Alabama. In 1960, it voted for JFK, who was perceived as weak on civil liberties. Then in 1964, it went Goldwater because LBJ didn’t appear on the ballot. In 1968, it voted for Wallace, who was not a Republican, he was a New Deal Democrat. In 1972, it voted for Nixon. But Nixon won almost every state, including New York. In 1976, Carter blew out Ford in Alabama, winning by 13 points, compared to his 2.5 point margin in New York. That shows the Southern Democratic contingent was alive and well as of 1976. It voted for Reagan in 1980, but by one point, compared to Reagan’s 9 point margin in the rest of the country. Carter ran more closely with Reagan in Alabama than he did in New York.

The question is: if the 1964 Civil Rights Act caused a mass exodus from Democrats to Republicans, why was a Democrat outperforming in Alabama compared to New York even by 1980? Democratic support for the Civil Rights Acts May have broken the “solid south” but that doesn’t mean those people became Republicans—who also supported civil rights. Other things needed to happen.

What those things were: they’re related but not the same as “civil rights.” “Civil rights” isn’t a single policy, but a range of policies with different ideological implications. Republicans strongly opposed de jure discrimination, and supported civil rights laws that eliminated such discrimination. But by the 1970s, the fight had moved to different issues: forced bussing, affirmative action, etc. And the race riots of the 1960s, and skyrocketing crime in cities, made “law and order” hot-button issues. Nixon and Reagan capitalized on southern views on those policies.

Saying that Nixon’s “southern strategy” was rooted in opposition to “civil rights” is a very Democratic way to look at the issue. Nixon helped champion the 1957 Civil Rights Act through Congress. He never backtracked on that. What he did was promise disaffected southern Democrats that he would not use the force of government to integrate private society, and would maintain law and order. (So did Carter, by the way.) It’s maybe fair to say it was an appeal to southern racism, but it was not ideologically inconsistent with his support for the civil rights act, and ideologically consistent with conservatism in general. (I happen to agree that you need affirmative action to erase previous discrimination. But I think it’s not intellectually honest to pretend that opposing affirmative measures to equalize society is on a continuum with opposing measures to eliminate de jure discrimination. They’re categorically different things.)

Apart from that, some reasons were in fact unrelated. Starting in the 1970s, the southern economies moved from agricultural to commercial. Southern states realized they could outbid northern states for business though low taxes and low regulation. Southern cities like Atlanta and Charlotte boomed during this period. That dissipated the New Deal sentiments that had previously tied the south to Democrats.

If you asked me what caused the modern Republican “solid south,” I would not say “the civil rights acts.” I think that an unwarranted attempt to tar modern conservatism in with segregationism, which is especially galling because New Deal liberals were in an alliance with segregationists at that time. I would say the proximate cause is the culture wars of the 1980s and 1990s, and the economic development of the south as being reliant on low taxes and regulation as a way to outcompete the north.

308. jpadkins ◴[] No.23379612{3}[source]
yes the phrase is famous, but the tweet was not clear at all. Trump was talking about bringing in the national guard, and who is doing the shooting is totally up to interpretation. You can reasonably read that tweet as "we need to establish order before the shooting starts" That does not imply the national guard will be doing the shooting.
309. agarden ◴[] No.23379999{8}[source]
If one wants to figure out how your question could be answered, I think the question to ask oneself is, would someone from the 19th or 18th century think we have more or less regard for human dignity than they did? And if they would think we have less regard for human dignity, why would they think that and what argument would they make?

You use 'dignity' to mean, I think, that an individual has been granted autonomy. So a woman is now free to sleep around, terminate her pregnancies at will, and live her life however she pleases; she has rights. To you, she is being treated with dignity because she has autonomy. But that is not, I think, the way the 19th century mind thought (obviously this is a generalization; but think in terms of the kind of person who would have defined what 'common decency' meant in 19th century America). Dignity back then had to do with comportment and behaving well. What you call 'dignity' they would call 'licentiousness', and it would be considered the antithesis of dignity. One of the words for such a woman was 'indecent'.

You can argue that political correctness is just the decent way to speak, but to assume that it is 'common decency' is to assume an awful lot, especially when using that phrase to put down approximately half of the US electorate. The disagreement on just what constitutes 'common decency' is the exact issue here. One cannot resolve the issue by appealing to it. Conservatives and liberals have a different idea of what is offensive/harmful and what is decent because they have different fundamental values.

Or at least some of them do. A whole bunch of people on all sides are just engaging in thoughtless tribalism and mood affiliation. You are not one of the thoughtless ones, obviously. :)

310. dlp211 ◴[] No.23396202{9}[source]
Why not?
311. 12elephant ◴[] No.23408052{10}[source]
I was never talking about fact checking. I'm taking issue to your casting morality as objective.

It is not.

That is all.

312. mwfunk ◴[] No.23422689{7}[source]
No shit dude.